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goose491 0
I think we agree more then disagree Derek, I'm not saying she should be grounded for ever, just that with that big a misinformation, she should not be allowed back in the air before every EP has been reviewed.
It's not just like your tailwheel experience, because in that, you are being instructed. You are not yet solo, it is expected of you to make mistakes... but if you don't get it, you don't solo.
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
It's not just like your tailwheel experience, because in that, you are being instructed. You are not yet solo, it is expected of you to make mistakes... but if you don't get it, you don't solo.
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
goose491 0
Oh and btw, I stress the short grounding and review of every EP because if she misunderstood this, it is very possible that there are some other things she's unclear about.
Someone said not to ground her because surely, she'll never make this mistake again. I'm surprised nobody has posted along my train of thought: If she got this wrong, what else does she have wrong? Don't send her up until we are all sure she knows her EPs!!
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
Someone said not to ground her because surely, she'll never make this mistake again. I'm surprised nobody has posted along my train of thought: If she got this wrong, what else does she have wrong? Don't send her up until we are all sure she knows her EPs!!
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
Hooknswoop 19
Oh and btw, I stress the short grounding and review of every EP because if she misunderstood this, it is very possible that there are some other things she's unclear about.
Someone said not to ground her because surely, she'll never make this mistake again. I'm surprised nobody has posted along my train of thought: If she got this wrong, what else does she have wrong? Don't send her up until we are all sure she knows her EPs!!
Excellent point and I think we agree 100%, you just worded it better
.
I guess I was thinking of the grounding as, "You are grounded, go home and think about what happened." and not, "OK, before you jump again, we need to make sure you understand all of this." Semantics. Not really a grounding, but just re-training before she jumps again. Same thing, I guess, I just associate grounding with punishiment/fixing attitude problems, not holding them on the ground until they are re-trained.
Derek
amir1967 0
Saskia wrote
One of my friends had a cutaway a couple of weeks ago, and the RSL beat him to pulling the reserve handle.. BUT.. he did grab the handle anyways, ready to pull it out, but he was already under a reserve.
Sorry Saskia but I feel I've to but in, Your friend should have pull the silver with or without an open reserve (rsl will beat anyone but at least you pull)
One of my friends had a cutaway a couple of weeks ago, and the RSL beat him to pulling the reserve handle.. BUT.. he did grab the handle anyways, ready to pull it out, but he was already under a reserve.
Sorry Saskia but I feel I've to but in, Your friend should have pull the silver with or without an open reserve (rsl will beat anyone but at least you pull)
AM67
dragon2 2
Saskia wrote
One of my friends had a cutaway a couple of weeks ago, and the RSL beat him to pulling the reserve handle.. BUT.. he did grab the handle anyways, ready to pull it out, but he was already under a reserve.
Sorry Saskia but I feel I've to but in, Your friend should have pull the silver with or without an open reserve (rsl will beat anyone but at least you pull)
I didn't write that, that was a quote from someone else (like your post above).
Oh BTW, in general I agree, but I have so many cutaways that if I ever have one with an rsl again (usually I jump camera so no rsl), I might or I might not. If the reserve is already open, it's open, and I know I can find and pull my handles
ciel bleu,
Saskia
Tonto 1
Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?
I think so.
I've moved the thread to safety and training.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
dan_iv 0
the way it was explained to me, is that anytime you have your reserve out, you better have pulled all handles. regardless of what equipement you have. If i remember correctly if you hadn't pulled both and your reserve was out (RSL or Cypress) you were still going to be grounded and re-trained prior to going back up, even if the person 'knew' their procedures but failed to initiate them correctly due to high levels of stress under the current circumstances.
If the RSL beats you and the reserve is sitting pretty over your head, what's the gain in now pulling the moderately expensive reserve handle? Is it really beneficial practice now that the other end is gone already?
But with rules in play that you suggest, certainly the wise person will make sure to pull it sometime before another person approaches.
But with rules in play that you suggest, certainly the wise person will make sure to pull it sometime before another person approaches.
If the RSL beats you
Here is 2 questions. I'm sure most people have heard a jumper say "I beat the RSL" or "I'm pretty sure I beat the RSL" when going silver.
Question 1: Can anyone offer a valid explanation of how one would "know" they beat their RSL?
and
Question 2)
When an RSL pulls the reserve pin, its done almost imediately as the riser leaves the 3 ring, as the lanyard connecting the riser to the reserve pin isn't very long, and there isn't much, if any, slack (maybe a few inches) in the lanyard anyways. So, assuming the lanyard is designed to pull the reserve pin at the ealiest safest interval after the cutaway has been used, wouldn't someone who "beats the RSL" essentially be producing an out of sequence reserve deployment, ie, firing the reserve before the risers have even cleared the harness? In the rush to "beat the RSL" they may infact fire thier reserve before clearing their malfunctioning main.
Personally I view comments like "I beat the RSL" as just someone trying to rationalize the fact they have an "auxillary saftey device", but that they didn't need it to count on it, they got the job done themselves. Almost like trying to make up for the fact they have one. "Yeah, I have an RSL, but I beat it when I had a malfunction".
If you have an RSL and it works like its supposed to, that great, be happy about it, thats what its there for, thats what I say.
Not a dis on RSLs or people that use them, or even people that say "I beat the RSL", just an observation.
Thoughts?
--
My other ride is a RESERVE.
MakeItHappen 15
Question 1: Can anyone offer a valid explanation of how one would "know" they beat their RSL?
On rigs besides RWS, there will be a tell tale kink in the reserve cable when the rsl pulls the reserve pin. No kink means you beat the rsl.
On RWS rigs, I don't think there is a way to tell.
So, assuming the lanyard is designed to pull the reserve pin at the ealiest safest interval after the cutaway has been used, wouldn't someone who "beats the RSL" essentially be producing an out of sequence reserve deployment, ie, firing the reserve before the risers have even cleared the harness?
That would be out of sequence emergency procedures. Yes to answer your question.
In the days of the Steven's lanyard (~15 ft long) You could tell you beat it because the handle was in your hand. Then the handle got yanked out of your hand when the lanyard became taught as you fell away from the main. (First hand experience on that too.)
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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
apley 0
my first mal was a result of extremely poor mentoring on the part of SOME of those i looked up to at my dz... the staff and instructors.
one instructor failed to hook up my rsl because he didn't understand it (it was a retrofit), and he was anxious to get on the next load. another instructor made some very lame attempts to assist me with my (2nd ever) pack job, (lots of pleading on my part), not explaining anything, and rushing me to get on the next load because i was the 1 body they needed to fly it.
this jump ended in a pilot-in-tow, and no rsl. i pulled my cutaway handle, fully expecting it to activate the rsl, and went back to belly, (selectively) remembering how important stability was. i lost another 2K feet before i managed to recover my senses and save my life at 1200 ft.
this incident was at 60 jumps. i won't even go into the remedial "training" i received once i got back to the packing barn. if not for the embarrassed S&TA who witnessed the discussion after my reserve ride, i would never have understood the packing error, and likely would never have returned to skydiving.
my point is to reinforce those that suggest that the training and mentoring we receive can be faulty. don't give up on a skydiver who becomes confused during a mal. it only means that the rest of us don't care enough about her life to make sure fits in socially, reaping the benefits of mentors and friends that want to see live.
or, maybe i just expect too much from my new community...
one instructor failed to hook up my rsl because he didn't understand it (it was a retrofit), and he was anxious to get on the next load. another instructor made some very lame attempts to assist me with my (2nd ever) pack job, (lots of pleading on my part), not explaining anything, and rushing me to get on the next load because i was the 1 body they needed to fly it.
this jump ended in a pilot-in-tow, and no rsl. i pulled my cutaway handle, fully expecting it to activate the rsl, and went back to belly, (selectively) remembering how important stability was. i lost another 2K feet before i managed to recover my senses and save my life at 1200 ft.
this incident was at 60 jumps. i won't even go into the remedial "training" i received once i got back to the packing barn. if not for the embarrassed S&TA who witnessed the discussion after my reserve ride, i would never have understood the packing error, and likely would never have returned to skydiving.
my point is to reinforce those that suggest that the training and mentoring we receive can be faulty. don't give up on a skydiver who becomes confused during a mal. it only means that the rest of us don't care enough about her life to make sure
or, maybe i just expect too much from my new community...
Hooknswoop 19
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think this happens more often than people realize.
Another issue that you sort of brought up is gender (gender deleted). Sometimes female jumpers get a lot of attention, none of which helps them learn or be better skydivers and can make things worse.
Derek
Another issue that you sort of brought up is gender (gender deleted). Sometimes female jumpers get a lot of attention, none of which helps them learn or be better skydivers and can make things worse.
Derek
apley 0
Another issue that you sort of brought up is gender (gender deleted). Sometimes female jumpers get a lot of attention, none of which helps them learn or be better skydivers and can make things worse.
Derek
it was a subtle reference to a larger issue, derek. thank you for catching it. i could write an essay on our failures in mentoring the newbies.
it is often only luck that saves us long enough to get wise... i know this from personal experience; pulling low for hundreds of jumps, ignoring my lack of education regarding my gear that always seemed to work the way it was intended, jumping in on zoo loads... the list is endless, and i'm sure you are quite familiar and could even add a few of your own.
i only hope i made my point that it is rarely the failure of the individual, and more likely a flaw in our social structure that deserves examination.
Ron 10
The only thing that really gets me about this is that some do not consider it to be a big deal that she didn't know how to save herself and an AAD had to do it.
I mean really, how bad does the FJC have to be that it never mentions the reserve handle can be used to stop the skydive?
Its clear that there was a failure in this case for learning to take place. However, everone wants to place the blame on the instructors.
I fail to see event he worst FJC in the history of the sport to omit the reserve handle and how it works.
I think one thing happend here.
The student in trying to justify and rationalize her participation in a dangerous sport, put more faith in the safety devices than her procedures. Since this was the focus of her energy it became the lesson.
I see it in SCUBA diving as well...People don't really learn to buddy breathe since everyone has an octo.
A factor that could have played in this is she is female. I have seen females get away with stupid things that males would get their ass reamed for. Why? Maybe the guys who should be yelling at her are trying to score, or maybe the guys are just trying to be nice to the girl.
However, the fact is that this sport does not care what you meant to do, or how cute or good in bed you are. It only cares what you did, and what happend. It will kill a hot chick just as fast as it will kill me.
Skydivers...If you think you are being nice to the cute chick...Treating them differently that you would a guy...STOP.
Instructors if you are letting a cute girl not own the knowledge needed to survive since she is cute and has an AAD..STOP.
I think the major problem is device dependancy. People don't see this as a big deal anymore. IT IS. However, I would venture that a good number of todays Instructors have always been in a world that has had a good AAD. So it started with a few new jumpers relying on the safety devices, but now those jumpers are Instructors and the attitude they have is not the old, "Stop the skydive or you will DIE!" It is, "Stop the skydive of your AAD will fire and save you."
There is a BIG difference between those two lines of thinking.
I mean really, how bad does the FJC have to be that it never mentions the reserve handle can be used to stop the skydive?
Its clear that there was a failure in this case for learning to take place. However, everone wants to place the blame on the instructors.
I fail to see event he worst FJC in the history of the sport to omit the reserve handle and how it works.
I think one thing happend here.
The student in trying to justify and rationalize her participation in a dangerous sport, put more faith in the safety devices than her procedures. Since this was the focus of her energy it became the lesson.
I see it in SCUBA diving as well...People don't really learn to buddy breathe since everyone has an octo.
A factor that could have played in this is she is female. I have seen females get away with stupid things that males would get their ass reamed for. Why? Maybe the guys who should be yelling at her are trying to score, or maybe the guys are just trying to be nice to the girl.
However, the fact is that this sport does not care what you meant to do, or how cute or good in bed you are. It only cares what you did, and what happend. It will kill a hot chick just as fast as it will kill me.
Skydivers...If you think you are being nice to the cute chick...Treating them differently that you would a guy...STOP.
Instructors if you are letting a cute girl not own the knowledge needed to survive since she is cute and has an AAD..STOP.
I think the major problem is device dependancy. People don't see this as a big deal anymore. IT IS. However, I would venture that a good number of todays Instructors have always been in a world that has had a good AAD. So it started with a few new jumpers relying on the safety devices, but now those jumpers are Instructors and the attitude they have is not the old, "Stop the skydive or you will DIE!" It is, "Stop the skydive of your AAD will fire and save you."
There is a BIG difference between those two lines of thinking.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Liemberg 0
I mean really, how bad does the FJC have to be that it never mentions the reserve handle can be used to stop the skydive?
Pretty bad, but my guess is that isn't the case we are confronted with most of the time...
Anyone out there ever tried to explain the wonderful working of Windows (say 3.1 to XP) to 'the elderly'?
(preferable one of your parents...
It took my father what seemed to me forever before he understood that alt+f4, alt+F followed by C and just pointing the mouse to the x on the upper right corner and then clicking the left button gave essentially the same result - "program terminated/window closed"...
"No dad, with alt+tab it is still there..."
The skydive can be stopped by pulling the main, the reserve handle, the cutaway handle + RSL or the AAD - that are a lot of options for the uninitiated - trust me... and we should agree that often they are poorly explained too! (No ill will there, just instructors stepping into the pitfall of shy students who 'don't want to slow down the rest of the class'...)
Other than that - whenever a real cute chick comes at my place I remind myself to go look for the whip...My first 'unforgetable blonde cutie' ended up over the village @ 250ft shouting "HELP ME, HELP ME", while my other 'unforgetable blonde cutie' chopped a perfectly good canopy @ 2000ft since the slider wouldn't go up...
(And YES, those skydiving careers were terminated...)
An often overlooked benefit of spring-loaded pilotchutes: you can actually leave the cute girl wrestling to get it closed ALL BY HERSELF...
Your admirable crusade against 'device dependancy' though sometimes reminds me of the epic adventures of don Quichotte - I don't think the majority of the instructors are fighting windmills...
For me it is impossible to actually CONTROL what goes on inside the students head but like most of us I could do a better job when it comes to 'student feedback' and 'spotting imperfections in education prior to the actual jump'.
My customers however, walk in the door 'expecting to fly' and are promised by the competition that they can, after just a few short and easy lessons while at the same time their health and overall quality of life improves...
So like others, I make a trade off...
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
Lindsey 0
The bottom line is, though, that it doesn't matter whose fault it is that she didn't learn adequately. SHE's the one who will die if she takes inappropriate action or no action at all. She is the only one who will suffer the consequences of her poor training or lack of insight into the harsh reality that she really can die skydiving. She is the only person who can fix her problem. Nobody else is gonna be there to help her out in those last few critical seconds.
It's not something to shrug off, imho. Blaming instructors is useless, even if it is to some extent true. Where the problem originated is a moot point.
linz
It's not something to shrug off, imho. Blaming instructors is useless, even if it is to some extent true. Where the problem originated is a moot point.
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
Hooknswoop 19
The only thing that really gets me about this is that some do not consider it to be a big deal that she didn't know how to save herself and an AAD had to do it.
I think the major problem is device dependancy.
I completely agree. I do not mean to downplay that she failed to save her own life when she was completely capable of it. I understand that she understands this too and has taken the necessary actions to ensure it doesn't ever happen again. So that is taken care of.
What cannot be overlooked is the possibility that she was set up for failure. What about the next student that recieves the exact same training and understands it the same way. Simply saying it was her fault, now it is fixed, move on isn't right. The next step is to determine how she (and others) ended up in the mindset of relying on their RSL/AAD and fix the training. The students coming in the door are who they are. The training must be designed to handle that and if they are pre-disposed to being device-dependant, change that and make sure they are not.
I fail to see event he worst FJC in the history of the sport to omit the reserve handle and how it works.
The FJC doesn't have to mit the reserve handle. Again, if the student is allowed to simplify their training (I'e already given an example of how this does happen), they can end up with the mind-set that all they have to do is cutaway and the rest is handled. This must be targeted by Instructors. Explaining EP's very carefully and testing the students has to happen. Instructors must assume that the students walking nthe door are device dependant and address that because.
Derek
Lindsey 0
I think about how many times I've heard students say things like, "I tried to tell my mother how safe skydiving is now...," or "It is safe, right?" I think it's really difficult sometimes for people new in the sport to accept that they really CAN die. That when we and our waivers that they sign mention the possibility of death, that it's not just legal mumbo jumbo. I think that people don't realize how FAST they have to act....that they don't have time to mentally wrestle with the problem at hand....that they need to know what to do and take action.
I don't know how to accomplish that in a FJC, except to lay it out completely and honestly....
linz
I don't know how to accomplish that in a FJC, except to lay it out completely and honestly....
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
Liemberg 0
Where the problem originated is a moot point.
True when you only look at her skydiving 'here and now', but false if we are to prevent similar cases.
I would hesitate to "blame" instructor or student as a matter of principle, but if there's a lesson to be learned?
(Instructor: "Please don't think with your dick when teaching skydiving" / cute female: "if you're gonna fuck up there's no use in polishing up your make-up ...")
And of course I don't know if the situation as sketched here was even remotely the case...
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
gemini 0
We have shifted to a male vs female student issue and differences in instruction each may receive either intentionally or unintentionally.
Placing that to one side, I still stand by my original position that "any" student who does not execute the proper EPs is grounded until they relearn them and demonstrate they can execute them the next time.
As Hook has repeatedly pointed out, this could also be an instruction issue so an instructor is not off the hook simply because it was the student that screwed up. The problem needs to be discussed in an instructor meeting where all intructors need to hear the same thing. If it is not clear to the instructors, how can it be clear to all the students?
Instructors who repeatedly "forget" to include such critical information and will not change their method of instruction or content need to be terminated.
Failure by the dz to take such action could be the crucial "crack in the wall" that a good plantiff's attorney could use to break the dz waiver. Something along the lines of "you knew about the problem and didn't take steps to cure the problem, therefore you are grossly negligent!"
I think it is an important lesson for the student that they be told they are grounded regardless of the duration of the grounding. Sometimes you have to grab them and shake reality into them in this sport.
Blue skies,
Jim
Placing that to one side, I still stand by my original position that "any" student who does not execute the proper EPs is grounded until they relearn them and demonstrate they can execute them the next time.
As Hook has repeatedly pointed out, this could also be an instruction issue so an instructor is not off the hook simply because it was the student that screwed up. The problem needs to be discussed in an instructor meeting where all intructors need to hear the same thing. If it is not clear to the instructors, how can it be clear to all the students?
Instructors who repeatedly "forget" to include such critical information and will not change their method of instruction or content need to be terminated.
Failure by the dz to take such action could be the crucial "crack in the wall" that a good plantiff's attorney could use to break the dz waiver. Something along the lines of "you knew about the problem and didn't take steps to cure the problem, therefore you are grossly negligent!"
I think it is an important lesson for the student that they be told they are grounded regardless of the duration of the grounding. Sometimes you have to grab them and shake reality into them in this sport.
Blue skies,
Jim
dan_iv 0
If the RSL beats you and the reserve is sitting pretty over your head
my question to you then would be, why did you not even attempt to pull your reserve handle. I'm pretty sure that If i'm faced with a situation that i need to cutaway my main (yes I have an rsl). I will be following the EP tought to me! i think that there is enough time between when you initate the cutaway before the rsl starts to deploy your reserve that you should have pulled sillver atleast during that sequence.
my EP's are "look right grab right(cutway), look left grab left" (silver). peel punch arch, punch arch. i dont' care if the reserve is deploying or not i'm pulling both in that situation, period!.
Lindsey 0
I agree with you. I was still speaking to the original question of whether a person who makes such a mistake should be grounded. Blaming the instructor and letting her off the hook is perpetuating the problem. But I do agree that altering teaching methods to head these problems off before they occur is worthwhile.
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
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