Another Static or AFF, advice please!

[noobie1 0]

Looking for some advice, suspect I will find it here.

Just made jumps 8-10 last weekend. Jump 8 cleared me off static line; only comment on jump was I did my PRCP as I stepped off step (good arch, looked up at JM.) I understood this, said what do I do to prevent early open, was told step, arch, see the plane, pull. Makes sense.

Jump 9, first freefall (I bought beer!) 4k feet, IIRC. Stepped, umm arch, not enough, realized I was on back, pull. I know the rule, pull while stable, pull at the correct attitude, but PULL! I would have rather taken some time to arch, and go face to earth, but I was told to see the plane and pull! A few line twists, kicked out, no problem. First time I opened face to the sky.

Jump 10, stepped, arch but when I reached to pull, I was told I rolled on my side (closer to face to ground), risers through legs, leg through risers, and arm wrong side of risers, and a few line twist, kicked out, no problem. I survived, no problem. Arm back to normal, bruising gone at one week. Once again, I followed rules and pulled even when I wanted to get face to earth. I suspect I scared my JM, sorry! Didn't think about what could have happened until later, just kicking myself at the time, since I knew I needed to arch and didn't.

I did have problems getting the arch down earlier, JM said I wasn't arching as much as would have liked, but was stable, jump 8 arched was good (looked up), and pulled PRC, so I advanced.

I also know that I experienced the same situation during second jump day, jumps 3-7. Finally got it together and arched better and pulled PRCP last two jumps, then third jump day, jump 8, well see above. So, I have been thinking maybe my first jump of the day is my golden opportunity, and maybe I need to go back and do another static with some of my same methods, write on my hands “ARCH/Look UP, and tell the JM I need another 3 seconds after JM says to go, to repeat the arch, look up and not rush into jumping (first jump I didn’t understand the necessity for getting out and jumping in a timely fashion, so I was looking for drop zone and dawdling—probably affected me a bit since then.)

I know my attention span isn't what some people have; yes there is a name for it, but I’m not spelling it out. Take meds, but I have come to realize I learn best by doing, repeating. If it matters, I am not a spring chicken, given my 48 years on this planet. Also, most people don’t consider me short of brain cells, unless perhaps they are watching me jump and pull while I am on my back.

After last jumps we talked about AFF, because of arching history. Part of me wants to go AFF, because I think I learn better by doing, feeling and repeating.

DZ said I would still need to go with two AFFI's. In the goals for AFF I see the first goal is stable and pull. I know I will pull, stable is another question. So, missing the stable goal really requires two AFF's?

And I think DZ says (need to clarify) first jump course for AFF. Not sure why, other than hand signals and exiting plane. Mini first AFF jump class?

My objection to AFF? Pricey compared to another static line, but if I take three more static jumps to get stable and advance, that's about one AFF without first jump class.

OK, great Sky Goddesses and Gods’, what are your thoughts? What would you instructors and JM’s do with a student like me? I know it’s hard to say without being there…

I feel like taking my SCUBA weight belt and strapping it on, so I drop my midsection…just joking.

What would make a proper AFF jump, one that most DZ’s would feel comfortable with? And since I am posting under a different name, so I don’t have any connection with my DZ, I suspect this DZ is a bit looser than some, static first jump course was less than two hours. Covered the essentials, didn’t overwhelm me. JM’s did add information as I needed it, such as before my first freefall. Didn’t suggest any out of class reading, or talk about SIM. Felt safe, perhaps knew I needed to learn a bit on my own. JM sticking with regs on first AFF, should I sound out the DZO, who is the S&TA? Or am I trying to bend the regs/rules to fit what I want to do?

I am jumping a student rig, about 270 or 300 sq ft, I am 210-215 pounds at Dr.’s office with street clothes. Cypress (blue button, think it’s a Cypress 1, not sure) set at 750, drop zone is about 100 to 125 feet higher than airport (DZ does not reset Cypress each time, there procedure), RSL. BOC opens a spring loaded PC, SOS. No hook knife, wondering about that…if I had wrapped the risers around my leg.

And yes, I do rehearse emergency procedures before each jump. I have watched lot’s of Skydivingmovies.com videos, I belive I know what malfunctions look like, and how to respond. Before my first freefall, JM talking about malfunctions, looking for a picture of a baglock, and I described it to a T, before picture was found.


Opening my ears and brain, eager and ready for your advice and thoughts.

Thanks,

Noobie1

[noobie1 0]

Long post I know.

If you just want to chew my arse, feel free. Would appreciate any feedback, helpful feedback especially.

Please?

[jloirsdaan 0]

Well, I'm definitely not a skygod.........but I can tell you that I had the same problem as a static line student.

I couldn't/wouldn't arch for s**t (after arching just fine on PRCPs).....did a WHOLE lot of 3 sec delays. On my back, front flips, go off on to my side, etc. I even got the "maybe you should take up golf" talk! However, I'm one stubborn SOB and stuck with it. It was funny....that through all of this....my only problem ended up being, just before I hopped off the step of the 182...I'd look back down at the ground. No one noticed it forever...till finally someone did. All that I did on the next jump is never take my eyes off the JM. Vola....problem solved. So at jump #20 something....I finally get past 3 sec delays....after repeatedly switching back and forth between going back on the static line back to freefall! Anyway....all I can say is pay attention and scrutinize everything you do....maybe its just some benine (sp?) thing like my issue!

I can also say that it took me 35 jumps to get my A license...and it still ended up being cheaper than getting the A with the AFF course at the next closest DZ! Just my $.02!

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[noobie1 0]

Hey, thanks for the thought!

OK, that's one I know I need to work on, I only looked at the JM on jump 8. And that was the jump JM said was my best arch.

I also said I was going to make a face at the JM, wonder if I did?

Arch, make face at JM, see plane, pull!

That and a new day, just might get me past this problem.

Thanks, and thanks for serving the US,

Noobie1

[jloirsdaan 0]

Thats what did it for me! Look at him from the time you leave the step till the canopy blocks your view. If your having to look up at him....chances are you'll arch naturally. Hope that works.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[Orange1 0]

I'm not a JM but I did both SL and AFF so... maybe a comment. But first I admit to being a little surprised at this

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I suspect this DZ is a bit looser than some, static first jump course was less than two hours.

Our SL FJC took almost a whole day... I suspect we spent at least 2 hours practising arch & exit count, and EPs!

You say you had a good arch on jump 8 - was that consistent with your previous jumps? Here, you need 5 good consecutive PRCPs before you can freefall - still see some people tumbling on first FF after that which i suspect is pyschological. Still remember you did the right thing - remember priorities of freefall (1) pull (2) pull at the right altitude (3) preferably pull stable - no point hitting the ground while you're still trying to get stable (or lose precious altitude and not give yourself space to cope with a possible malfunction).

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but when I reached to pull, I was told I rolled on my side

- I assume this because you didn't pull your left arm in as you reached with your right? The importance of this to keep stable was explained to you?

I switched to AFF after my first freefall mainly out of impatience to get off progression... ground class for AFF = hand signals as well as there are more tasks than just jump, get stable and pull. Whether it will be better for you... I don't know, but I do know a few people who moved to AFF after getting "stuck" somewhere on SL and found it helped. It sounds to me all you are getting stuck with is getting and keeping an arch. On SL our JMs always told us to try keep eye contact with them i.e look at plane. My gut feel (unlike a lot of people here as you will see if you do a SL vs AFF search) is to say just keep practising the arch, all the time, on the ground too, until it's automatic. I also can't figure out from your post if you are thinking one AFF and then back to SL progression, or continue with AFF... I'm not sure that one AFF jump in the middle will help, but maybe that's where some instructors can come in and give their opinions.

ps on the hook knife question... different DZs seem to have different policies for students, some give them, some don't, figuring a student may be slashing around not knowing what they're actually meant to cut...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Silverchic 0]

I still forget to arch out the door sometimes! =) Only for a second or two - usually on the first jump of the weekend...

I did my course as AFF not static line so of course I'm a fan of AFF. I don't understand where you want to go though - do you want to do your AFF eventually or not? I mean if you are going to do it anyway you might as well start now (people who have never jumped before can make it past stage one! ) but if you can get your A licence without doing AFF then wouldn't it be a LOT cheaper?

How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?

[noobie1 0]

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I'm not a JM but I did both SL and AFF so... maybe a comment. But first I admit to being a little surprised at this

Umm, yea...that's why I decided to post with a different username...I like the DZ, but suspected some would disapprove of the FJC.

You say you had a good arch on jump 8 - was that consistent with your previous jumps?

Somewhat consistent, untill jump 8 I didn't look up, ground certainly fascinated me, haha. I was stable on exit. Perhaps not arched as well as I should be. I find it difficult to arch, maybe because of some L4 & L5 disk problems, maybe I am just using that as an excuse.

Quote...
Here, you need 5 good consecutive PRCPs before you can freefall

Three at my DZ, I didn't hear any problems with my PRCP, nothing about left hand not moving to head.

- still see some people tumbling on first FF after that which i suspect is pyschological. Still remember you did the right thing - remember priorities of freefall (1) pull (2) pull at the right altitude (3) preferably pull stable - no point hitting the ground while you're still trying to get stable (or lose precious altitude and not give yourself space to cope with a possible malfunction).

Yep, as much as I want to jump at twice the altitude, I know the rules, PULL. I suspect I lose "points" if I took another 5 seconds to get stable...but I feel like that's what I need.

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but when I reached to pull, I was told I rolled on my side

- I assume this because you didn't pull your left arm in as you reached with your right? The importance of this to keep stable was explained to you?

Yep. I also read about this, but they also saw me demonstrating left hand going to head.

I switched to AFF after my first freefall mainly out of impatience to get off progression... ground class for AFF = hand signals as well as there are more tasks than just jump, get stable and pull. Whether it will be better for you... I don't know, but I do know a few people who moved to AFF after getting "stuck" somewhere on SL and found it helped. It sounds to me all you are getting stuck with is getting and keeping an arch. On SL our JMs always told us to try keep eye contact with them i.e look at plane. My gut feel (unlike a lot of people here as you will see if you do a SL vs AFF search) is to say just keep practising the arch, all the time, on the ground too, until it's automatic. I also can't figure out from your post if you are thinking one AFF and then back to SL progression, or continue with AFF... I'm not sure that one AFF jump in the middle will help, but maybe that's where some instructors can come in and give their opinions.

I have thought about one or two AFF, then back to SL. Not sure. But as someone else pointed out, I need to keep looking at the JM and plane. That might be the cure.

ps on the hook knife question... different DZs seem to have different policies for students, some give them, some don't, figuring a student may be slashing around not knowing what they're actually meant to cut...

A hook knife could be ugly, can you imagine hook knifing your harness? But sometimes it could be very usefull.

Thanks,

J

[noobie1 0]

Jordan,

I am begining to feel like I should give it another go on SL, and use the marker on my hand to remind me to look at my JM...just need to remind myself how I would rather look at a beautifull female or the ground! OK, I also need to remind myself she is more than ten years younger than I am, which is outside my comfort zone.

But, most of all, I did my best arching when I looked up, and I want to try that again. Just a little freaky thinking about tangling risers around body parts...which shouldn't happen if I look up!

Thanks again,

Noobie1

[Andy9o8 2]

(Note: I'm not an instructor)
Switching to AFF often gets stability problems squared away for most S/L progression students having stability problems -- but if you want to keep trying S/L progression (which can be cheaper over the short run), consider having your instructor/JM videotape your jumps. Then, the tape can be analyzed in slow motion to diagnose what you're doing to go unstable.

Your experience is common. Going unstable in the first couple seconds off the step on H&P's is a hurdle that frustrates a lot of students on S/L progression. Sometimes the cause is so subtle or happens so quickly it's hard to observe, so the only comment you get from the instructor/JM who tossed you out is "You didn't stay stable; go back and do it again...and, um, relax this time." The frustration sets in when it keeps happening, because you're so new at it & have so much sensory overload that you can't tell what you're doing wrong & your instructor/JM doesn't always explain what you're doing wrong, either. That was my experience as a S/L progression student until about Jump #25 when it finally clicked for me.

There's a video on skydivingmovies.com of a student who goes unstable on a h&p. (I won't post the link out of respect for pilotdave who asks that this not be done.) It happens pretty fast in real time speed, but when you slow it down you can see that when the student reached to pull with his right hand, he didn't pull his left arm in far enough, looked down instead of up at the plane, de-arched slightly, and dropped his right knee, all of which initiated a barrel-roll away from the relative wind. I'm willing to bet he had little or no awareness of what he'd done wrong until his instructor reviewed the tape with him.

Video is a great tool in the learning toolbox. If it's available to use, use it.

[Orange1 0]

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But, most of all, I did my best arching when I looked up, and I want to try that again.

Just a thought - our exit commands on SL are "climb out, look up, go" - so you are already looking up as you leave the plane (which will definitely help you arch) because looking up is part of the command - how do yours go? Any chance you can get your JM to add it in (I know some would be reluctant to change the usual command)?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[noobie1 0]

I think the command, climb out, look up, go would be great. I don't really hear any commands, something that is frustrating to me. Mostly a nod, when it's go time. That has caused me a bit of frustration in the past.

My DZ has two hand prints on the C182 spar, I would like to see them add large print words, perhaps look up and arch to the spar. Right there on the spar, perhaps seeing it in the last few seconds would help some people, like me.

I suspect I will meet some resistance to the request, but am going to ask. Sometimes it's hard to hear anything, standing out in the slipstream (correct term?)

If nothing else, I will definitely write it on my hands, and tell the JM I need 5 seconds are I am given the go. Then I can read my hand and repeat lookup, go, arch (is that correct?) to myself. Seemed to work last time, worth a try. Last time, first jump of day, I was very focused on arch, go and make a face at the JM! And it worked.

Thanks for the suggestion, blue skies,

Noobie1

[monkycndo 0]

I went through AFF for my training, but a fellow jumper went through SL. He had the same problem as you. This is how the instructor broke the habit of looking at the ground. He told my buddy that as he was sliding down the hill after releasing the strut, he needed to watch the instructor for a hand signal that would be flashed. Something as useless as a wave, thumbs up, whatever. If the student caught the signal, he would pass the jump. If not, repeat it. That little task/distraction was all to took to keep his head up and have smooth exits. Habit broken on first try.

I had the habit during pull time to not put my left hand out in front of me and to look for the handle as I tried to pull. As I looked, I dropped my right shoulder and went into a slow spin. It wasn't a problem when I was still being held by my instructor, but once released, the combination of these put me unstable and caused line twists on opening. I started to get more nervous each time making it worse. The solution for me was to perform of the following sequence at pull time. It solved my pull problem on the first try.

Exhale- helps you relax and a better arch
Point palm of left hand at the horizon- helps get that hand way out in front of your face where it belongs
Read altimeter- Keeps your head up and maintains arch, plus re-enforces altitude awareness
As you do the two above, smoothly but deliberately right hand back and pull- keeps body symmetrical and stable

It might be necessary to modify these to fit SL procedures, but they are another possible approach.

Good luck

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[NelKel 0]

Have you ever felt/reached terminal velocity in FF? Like on a tandem?

Two things: How are you going to read the notes on your hand, while holding on to the strut of the 182? and I have never heard of a springloaded PC in a BOC. BOC is bottom of contianer where PC are stowed. Springloaded PC are usualy inside of the container atop the D-bag and need a ripcord to open the contianer.

Try mental review, picture your self hanging on the strut. Pelvis forword, chin up, let go. Good luck

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[riggerrob 643]

Sounds like you are at the same plateau as I was 26 years ago.
You are not going to learn much more by doing more short freefalls, not are you going to save any money by repeating levels.
If you transfer to AFF then plan on doing seven or eight AFF jumps and graduating.
Each different training program is best at teaching different skills at different levels.
For example, tandem is the safest way to teach people how to face their fears about exiting airplanes, but its training value soon fades.
Static-line (and IAD) are great for teaching the basics of steering parachutes, but fade when students progress to freefall.
Wind tunnels are great for teaching the basics of freefall, but lack "time pressure/"
Sooner or later you have to combine all those skills on a freefall jump from an airplane.

The better schools use combinations of two or three or ideally four different methods.

For example: at Pitt Meadows, we encourage students to start with a tandem. Then they do one or two IAD jumps (or until they demonstrate decent landings), then 5 or 6 PFF dives to gaduate. If there was wind tunnel near Vancouver, we would insist on a a tunnel session or two before PFF.

In conclusion, you are wasting time and dollars at your current plateau. You would be wiser to spend that money on AFF dives.

[NWFlyer 2]

Depending on how flexible and creative your DZ is willing to get, you may not need to switch *entirely* into AFF. You may be able to do some sort of hybrid that gets you the instruction that you need to knock off all of the items on the A License proficiency card.

Here's what I did. I was also having major stability problems on my first clear & pulls off static line. I switched into AFF, did 5 jumps of the AFF progression, then went back into the static line progression at 45-second delay jumps. I also had to go back and meet the hop & pop requirement on the A license card, but I actually ended up doing them after (or around the same time) my 45 second delays, but before I was cleared to solo student status.

I love hop & pops now, but it's weird to think back on how awful they were for me back then. Exiting stable can be a stumbling block for a lot of people, and there's lots of different ways to get through it. Good luck!

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Andy9o8 2]

FWIW, I agree with Rob & Krisanne that you should switch to AFF; I wasn't suggesting you should stay with S/L progression, I was just acknowledging the short-term financial difference between the two approaches & suggesting that video would be a good idea IF you decided to stay with S/L progression. As I said, your experience is very common. As you can see, it happened to Rob, Krisanne and me, too. But fortunately for Krisanne and students like you, AFF is available to you. AFF didn't exist yet when Rob & I were students; and speaking for myself, I wish it did, because I'm sure it would have made the same difference for me as it did for Krisanne.
Also, since returning to the sport a couple of years ago after a pretty long layoff (since before AFF really came into its own), I have also come to STRONGLY feel that a hybrid approach is the best one, basically for the reasons that Rob just described. You've already done Phase 1 of "your" hybrid approach. You've dealt with "door fear", and have done 10 canopy flights (& landings!). It's time to get out of your rut and move on to Phase 2.
Oh, P.S. - video is a great training tool in AFF, too.

[skydiverbry 0]

IMHO Go ahead and move on to AFF-1 if your instructor agree.

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Growing old is mandatory.Growing up is optional!!

D.S.#13(Dudeist Skdiver)