Price of Canopy Control Courses

[tbrown 26]

I think by now everyone pretty well agrees that taking a canopy control course is pretty essential to our basic safety as skydivers, that and learning how to get more enjoyment out of our canopies, but mostly the safety aspect. I'd like to take a course myself, especially since I injured myself last year from improperly handling a fast landing in no wind conditions.

But the cost of taking a course presents a real obstacle. Most of the quotes I've been given are up around or over $300 for a daylong course with 5 jumps. I'm not complaining either, there's a lot that needs to be paid for; the instructor's time, the video, debriefings, class time and materials and so forth. Plus the people who give these courses are entitled to make a living at it, or at least I hope they can.

But there are a lot of jumpers out there who struggle to scrape together enough to just go and jump once or twice a month. Usually the married ones with families and other obligations in life. Some jumpers can't even afford the luxury of playing in the wind tunnel at all, not if they want to skydive. But canopy control really is so important. As Kaz Sheeky says, landing is the one thing we have to do every time, no matter what else we do on the jump. And that it shouldn't be the "frightening" part of the jump when we can learn to actually enjoy doing it safely. So we really do need this training, all of us. I personally need it because I learned on an early generation of canopies that would put the average jumper today to sleep with boredom. Even student canopies like the Navigator blow the doors off anything we had 25 years ago. But as I also said, I personally got hurt from mishandling one landing where things got going a little too fast under a "mellow" Spectre canopy.

Skydiving ain't cheap, I know that, we all know it. AFF, buying gear, even regular "gotta do" stuff like getting your reserve repacked ain't cheap. Some of have more money, some don't. There's always whipping out the palstic, but that has its limits too. So I'd just like to open a forum to people's thoughts on how to reach some kind of balance on affordability for this essential kind of training.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[thepollster 0]

CC classes are cheaper than broken bones. Also, at boogies there are often low/no cost seminars, and some will do video debriefs included.

If someone can't afford to stay current, maybe skydiving isn't for them.

[timmyfitz 0]

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But the cost of taking a course presents a real obstacle. Most of the quotes I've been given are up around or over $300 for a daylong course with 5 jumps. I'm not complaining either, there's a lot that needs to be paid for; the instructor's time, the video, debriefings, class time and materials and so forth. Plus the people who give these courses are entitled to make a living at it, or at least I hope they can.

The Flight-1 course at Skydive Elsinore is $185 for the day which includes the cost of 5 jumps, video, debriefs and coaching. The coaching is done with either Johnathan Tagle or Scott Miller (Sometimes both)

I have over 2700 jumps and I am a poor (skydiving doesn't pay much) skydiving instuctor. I learned a lot from the essentials course which I took on a Friday. I also took the advanced couse Saturday. I not only scraped together the money for the course but I took off most of the weekend from skydiving which is when I make most of my income.

If it is something you feel is important you will find a way to make it happen.

I do agree the canopy flight is one of the most important but most neglected portion of learning to skydive. For those people that can't afford the time or money to take a canopy course, find a qualified canopy pilot or someone who has taken the course and learn as much as you can. I would be happy to pass along all the info I learned at no charge (maybe a beer or two).

[Shark 0]

Yeah, what Teem sez....

You should see his 630s now.

[fmmobley 0]

In August of this year I paid only $150 for a CC course with Scott Miller at Deland. It included 5 jumps. I thought it was a bargain.

... Marion

[Adriandavies 0]

At the moment it looks as if skydivers can get this sort of course cheaper in the the UK than in the States which is an unsual situation.

In the UK Chris Lynch offers day course aimed at different experience levels. I attended one of his courses earlier this year and price wise they seem to be a bargain in comparison to the rates you have just quoted. 4 jumps, his time, video debrief and basic course materials came to about $110 or £65. Each level he teaches comes to the same price, give or take an extra jump or two. His basic fee is £25 with the rest of the cost going in jump tickets for hop n pops.

Rates in Spain which are normally very good value for money in comparison to the UK are 390EUR or about £260 or approx $442 from the Empuria DZ in northern Spain.

[LittleOne 0]

My canopy skills suddenly degraded this summer, so Cross Keys, my home dz, put together a 4 jump, private class for $170. That seemed reasonable for the one on one coaching and complete focus on my own issues. They don't normally offer an in house canopy control class. I'm doing ok now so it was worth every penny.

[davelepka 4]

If the USPA would buck up and attach soem realistic sort of canopy training to the licensing programs, there would be A) courses being given at every DZ around the country and B) more good information and informed skydivers in the community.

If you didn't have to pay for the instructors travel and housing, and it was at your local DZ (so no extra travel for you) that would redcue the cost right there. By linking them to the license requirements, you increase the number of participants and in turn decrease the per student cost.

It's true, landing is the only thing you do every jump, but the USPA is more concerned with how well you can maintain your levels in your boxman, or pick up grips on a two-way. Ground breaking, safety related stuff indeed.

[jlmiracle 7]

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If the USPA would buck up and attach soem realistic sort of canopy training to the licensing programs, there would be A) courses being given at every DZ around the country and B) more good information and informed skydivers in the community.

Why the USPA? IMO, if the manufacturers are going to continue to make these obnoxiously small and wickedly fast canopies they should be responsible for the training. What good does it do them to kill or mame all their customers?

Just a thought.

J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 3,092]

How to make canopy training more affordable?

1) Establish a canopy coach rating, between USPA, Scott Miller, the Evolution school, Brian Germain etc. We have enough talent now that a syllabus and practical standards shouldn't be hard to come up with.

2) Designate 3-4 CC Course Directors who can certify new coaches.

3) Start CC certification courses across the US.

4) Offer this new training as part of the ISP.

[Remster 30]

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If the USPA would buck up and attach soem realistic sort of canopy training to the licensing programs, there would be A) courses being given at every DZ around the country and B) more good information and informed skydivers in the community.

Why the USPA? IMO, if the manufacturers are going to continue to make these obnoxiously small and wickedly fast canopies they should be responsible for the training. What good does it do them to kill or mame all their customers?

Just a thought.

J

What do obnoxiously small and wickedly fast canopies have to do with basic canopy control?

Remster

[superstu 0]

the only person responsible for the training is YOU. the manufacters, the USPA, who ever, isn't going to be the one with the broken bones. no one is making people jump small, fast, canopies, so those who jump them must assume the resposiblities for their actions, i know i have.

another thing to think about is how many QUALITY canopy instructors are out there right now? if USPA makes it part of getting a lisence then we'll have less quality instructors at every DZ giving out instruction on stuff they don't know (but that's just my opinion). now if they can make a canopy control rating, like an AFF or Tandem rating then they could control it a little bit. but who really knows what they are going to do.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[billvon 3,092]

>Why the USPA?

Because they are the body that sets training standards for skydivers in the United States.

>IMO, if the manufacturers are going to continue to make these
> obnoxiously small and wickedly fast canopies they should be
> responsible for the training.

Not really workable. You'd have a dozen different courses, each one at the manufacturer's headquarters. Not many people would fly to Deland just to take a PD course, or go to Tennessee for a Precision course.

[davelepka 4]

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another thing to think about is how many QUALITY canopy instructors are out there right now? if USPA makes it part of getting a lisence then we'll have less quality instructors at every DZ giving out instruction on stuff they don't know (but that's just my opinion)

Keep in mind, that if the USPA would get behind a program, and make it madatory, there would have to be a written syllabus. As long as they outsource writing the syllabus to Scott Miller or Brian Germain, we should be in good shape.

What I'm talking about is not high performance coaching, just some basic aerodynamics (how it works, and why it works that way), additional information on weather, canopy handling drills, and off field landing stratagies.

Take a halfway decent instructor, give them the syllabus, and some time to review it. Give them an oppertunity to call someone, and discuss areas they are unsure of. Maybe even produce a video for the instrucotrs benefit, or even to present to the students. I see the level of instruction the students get as being prety good.

If you want high performance coaching, you do need to spend some dough, and find the elusive combination of good swooper and good instructor.

[divnswoop 0]

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If the USPA would buck up and attach soem realistic sort of canopy training to the licensing programs,

As much as I agree with what you have been pushing for within USPA...it still comes down to the DZ's. The USPA came up with a 25 jump program to prepare a student better for post student status. That program does include "some" canopy control education. But once you get outside of the DZ you jump at....(dave).....you'll realize there are SEVERAL dz's that still only do a 7 jump program and turn people loose. USPA can come up with all types of programs, but it takes the DZ to implement them. If/ when they do some type of canopy control program, there are still going to be a large amount of people who complain about the cost of education and refuse to implement it.

[tbrown 26]

Alright, now this is all some good stuff you're all putting out.

The other reason I posted this thread is because I'm very concerned about how dormant this Safety & Training Forum has been lately. I don't think we're that safe yet are we ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[jlmiracle 7]

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the only person responsible for the training is YOU. the manufacters, the USPA, who ever, isn't going to be the one with the broken bones. no one is making people jump small, fast, canopies, so those who jump them must assume the resposiblities for their actions, i know i have.

FINALLY - thank you! I thought I was the only one that thinks I am responsible for what I fly and how I fly it. I just wanted to play blame game too, its so californian.


j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jlmiracle 7]

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Not really workable. You'd have a dozen different courses, each one at the manufacturer's headquarters. Not many people would fly to Deland just to take a PD course, or go to Tennessee for a Precision course.

It just as hard to get to the manufacturers places as it is to get to a dz that is offering a canopy course.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 3,092]

>It just as hard to get to the manufacturers places as it is to get to a
>dz that is offering a canopy course.

It's just as hard to go to Tennessee as it is to go to your local DZ? The closest DZ to me is only 45 minutes away. There is a USPA coach there. If we implemented the CC rating, there would be a CC there too.

[davelepka 4]

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I thought I was the only one that thinks I am responsible for what I fly and how I fly it.

Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. My ideas are not designed for you, with your level of experience. they are aimed toward newer jumpers, who need an avenue with which to build the knowledge to make good choices with their actions.

It's hard to blame a newbie for making a mistake if they have never been taught that it's a mistake or have never been exposed to someone else making the same mistake.

Once you show them the way, it's thier choice to follow it or not, but unitl you show them, they cannot be entirely responsible for their actions.

[davelepka 4]

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there are SEVERAL dz's that still only do a 7 jump program and turn people loose. USPA can come up with all types of programs, but it takes the DZ to implement them.

You're right about that, but with no program in place, there is no chance that any DZ will implement it. By having a program, you really up the chances that DZ will pick it up.

Add in the information superhighway, and even DZ's that initailly choose to pass will have jumpers reading about it, and maybe making some noise toward getting it going.

Also, if it was a requirement for a license, it would be yet another thing the S&TA would have to look the other way on when signing people off. Sooner or later the S&TA'a will tire of that, and start pushing the DZO's to toe the line.

I forget about all of the stuff over the summer. Why the hell can't DZOs take care of their students like they should.

[jlmiracle 7]

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>It just as hard to get to the manufacturers places as it is to get to a
>dz that is offering a canopy course.

It's just as hard to go to Tennessee as it is to go to your local DZ? The closest DZ to me is only 45 minutes away. There is a USPA coach there. If we implemented the CC rating, there would be a CC there too.

IF there was a USPA CC THEN we would have them available at our dz, but I thought we were addressing the CURRENT people that are self-proclaimed canopy coaches. They are not available at every dz, heck, not even every region.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 3,092]

>but I thought we were addressing the CURRENT people that are
>self-proclaimed canopy coaches.

Sorry, I misread your post. I agree - right now they are few and far between.

[davelepka 4]

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if the manufacturers are going to continue to make these obnoxiously small and wickedly fast canopies they should be responsible for the training.

I'm not worried about those already jumping wickedly small and fast canopes. They can maim themselves all day long. However, I think that if jumpers had a better base of knowledge, they may maim themselves a little less often.

Although, I think a factory run high performance course for swooping canopies would be cool. If PD ran Velo swoop camp with the team guys running it, I think people would flock to it. Diito for Percision or Icarus.

[PhreeZone 20]

I know both Brian and Scott spend the majority of their weekends on the road traveling to DZ's. If you really want canopy skills taught at your DZ its not that hard to get on their schedules. I did it for Scott Miller 2 years ago and it was greatly recieved so I will be doing it again this year.

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