Chop or not??

[Firephoto 0]

Ok this didn't happen to me but to a friend of mine. He was doing his second jump IAD everything went fine for the most part but he had to hold the right toggle all the way down just to fly straight. Would he have been wrong to cut away?

Needless to say everything worked out ok he landed kinda hard but walked away. His thinking was the chute was open and kinda stearable so he kept it. Just was wondering what people here would do?
Thanks.

[CornishChris 5]

"Is it square and does it flare?".

To me that canopy failed the controlability test and as a student it would have gone bye-bye.

Did he make the right decision to land it? If he walked away OK and learnt something then pretty much yes but i would not have done the same.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[tdog 0]

What have you learned in your student program about this???

I know some schools use the "There, Square, and Steerable" as a memory aid to inspect a canopy...

Others use other memory aids, like "Square, Lines straight, Slider Down"...

I personally would have cut away and pulled my reserve on your friend's scenario...

Sounds like you have a good conversation starter with your instructors before your next jump. (Going by your profile that you are on your own 2nd jump.)

[daniel_owen_uk 0]

I would have chopped it, if it needs full toggle input just to fly straight what happens if it corrects itself at 100 feet?

Yep that would hurt

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[phoenixlpr 0]

If you have to pull one toggle all the way down to fly strait you can flare at all. No flare ? Its must be chopped.

[Hawkins121 0]

Quote

Ok this didn't happen to me but to a friend of mine. He was doing his second jump IAD everything went fine for the most part but he had to hold the right toggle all the way down just to fly straight. Would he have been wrong to cut away?

Needless to say everything worked out ok he landed kinda hard but walked away. His thinking was the chute was open and kinda stearable so he kept it. Just was wondering what people here would do?
Thanks.

Were both leg straps even?

[Firephoto 0]

I am not to sure about the leg straps I am going by what he said happened. he jumped first and was telling me about it later. He said he didn't flair and just did a good PLF. Thanks for the answers I was just wondering what he should have done if anything. I am going to ask our instructor on Saturday what he thinks. Like I said everything turned out fine.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Were both leg straps even?

With a student wing load I don't think that's really count.

I can make a nice 90 degrees turn with just weight shift, that could be equivalent with a 1/4 or less toggle turn, but under WL 1.3-1.4+.

[billvon 3,080]

>Would he have been wrong to cut away?

Can he turn it, flare it, make it go straight? Then keep it. If not? Then get rid of it.

I tell my students they may occasionally have to hold some toggle to get their canopy to go straight. But if they have to hold it all the way down just to go straight, then they can't turn in that direction, and it fails the test.

[tbrown 26]

There was a fatality last month involving a novice jumper (approx 146 jumps) who had a 188 Pilot canopy with one of the brakes not released. According to witnesses, everything looked just fine until the last 200 ft. Nobody even had any idea he was in trouble until he suddenly spun out of control and crashed. He died an hour or so later.

Controllability chacks aren't just a good idea, they're essential. Slow moving "minor" malfunctions are especially dangerous because they give you time to think too much and get scared of cutting away (unlike a spinning mess, where you're grabbing handles as fast as you can find them). Ultimately we have to trust our EPs and our reserve - our equipment is the only thing that allows to jump at all, so if we can't trust it to work, then we're in the wrong sport.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[lsanderlin 0]

OK. Being that this was ME. I figure that maybe I should give my input.

Conditions:
Relatively high wind for a student.

Here's how the jump went:
1. Exit at 3600 feet.
2. Chute opened, slider up.
3. Two toggle pulls brought slider down.
4. Started backing up due to wind condition.
5. Maintaining right toggle input about 80% to continue to fly straight. As a student at the time, I thought this was compensation for the wind. Since then I have learned differently.
6. Was able to maintain flight pattern and landing pattern.
7. Landed on target, Landing wasn't pretty but I walked away and was able to eat my breakfast the next day under my own power.

I'm more worried about what I would do next time. That first reserve ride is going to be a bitch.

lsanderlin

[riggerrob 643]

My personal guideline is shoulder height.
If I have to pull a steering toggle below my shoulder to keep a canopy flying straight, I toss my toggles and start peeling and pulling more handles.

I have landed a couple of tandem mains (with broken lines or tension knots) that needed me to pull a toggle to ear level - to keep them going straight. The landings were not pretty, but we walked away.

[lsanderlin 0]

Thanks! That's the sort of input I'm looking for. I wasn't sure at the time what was acceptable.

[chuckbrown 0]

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That first reserve ride is going to be a bitch.

No it won't. If you have to use your reserve, you will be so glad to get rid of your main and have a good canopy over your head.

[FrogNog 1]

I had a student canopy problem that required shoulder-height toggle to fly straight: PC wrapped over the nose and opened up, around cell 3. It was clean - no lines involved. I had quite a few jumps (I might even have had my "A" license at that point, and only been jumping a student rig because that's what was available to rent right then) and my controllability check told me I could steer it both directions (one better than the other) and flare it fine (if a bit lopsided on the flare). I also didn't think it was going to cure itself, nor worsen if I flew very gently. (Flying gently is an easy option with student canopies.
I believe I PLFed it just to be on the safe side, in case I lopsided my flare or something. The PLF turned out to be unnecessary, but it was nice insurance.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[bodypilot1 0]

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That first reserve ride is going to be a bitch.

No it won't. If you have to use your reserve, you will be so glad to get rid of your main and have a good canopy over your head.

Reserves are not always a guarantee.
Assessing your main canopy malfunction to determine your surivablity, as a student, isn't very easy.
Thought it is very easy for other jumper to criticize the person for keeping the canopy, and say what they would have done given that situaton, in this case, he may have made the right decision because he walk away from it safely.



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[JohnRich 4]

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If you have to pull one toggle all the way down to fly strait you can flare at all. No flare ? Its must be chopped.

Not necessarily...

It depends upon the canopy size and performance, and wingloading. Since this was a student, it was probably a large docile canopy, with low wingloading.

We're seeing way too many people jump to judgement based upon their own personal parameters, without even knowing what the specific factors were for this person in this particular instance. (This is a growing pet peeve...)

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Not necessarily...

It depends upon the canopy size and performance, and wingloading. Since this was a student, it was probably a large docile canopy, with low wingloading.

Ok. Please,share your version of controllability check for student.

[gdmusumeci 0]

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My personal guideline is shoulder height.

This is my rule of thumb as well. A little bit of toggle input to keep flying straight is acceptable, with some careful attention to keeping the wing flying straight through the flare, but that's about the limit for me.

[daniel_owen_uk 0]

I am pretty new so can you explain how to flare with one toggle?

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[phoenixlpr 0]

If you have to keep one toggle all the way down to keep your canopy fly strait you have no flare, because if you start pulling the other toggle your canopy will turn .

[daniel_owen_uk 0]

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If you have to keep one toggle all the way down to keep your canopy fly strait you have no flare, because if you start pulling the other toggle your canopy will turn .

That's what I figured, so where does canopy size and wingloading come in to it?

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[phoenixlpr 0]

No in this place. If you happen to be under a sh*t like described above and over 600m chop. If that sh*t is a reserve prepare a relly hard landing, because you don't have any flare, but a sink.

WL adds speed and sensitivity of weight shift into the game.

[daniel_owen_uk 0]

Ahh I see, so you wouldn't have any flare but if you are under a 350 and weigh 100lbs then a no flare landing isn't going to kill you.

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[phoenixlpr 0]

I think the won't fly like full flight, my guess is something similar way of flying like it would with both toggles down.

Anyway why do you wanna fly with something does not pass your controllability check???

You have that check in order to decide to keep or chop.

I might chop even 300+ sqft over 600m, there is a reason for that bad flying and things can develop next to the ground from bad to worst.