ozzy13 0 #1 April 9, 2008 I know Uspa is talking about it. I feel the Requirements are way to low at this time. My feelings are at a 100 jumps you are still focused on your own flying where as a coach you need to be focused on the students flying. What does everyone else feel?Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #2 April 9, 2008 Don't even need 500 and a D license for an AFF rating, so that's a bit much for a coach rating. I think 200 is a bit more appropriate than 100 though for the average skydiver to really be able to fly with someone and provide useful feedback. Maybe some people with 100 jumps make good coaches, but I know I couldn't have and haven't met anyone that could... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #3 April 9, 2008 Quote Don't even need 500 and a D license for an AFF rating, You dont need 500 skydives but you do need 6 hours of free fall . Thats around 400 skydives. At least for me it was. I think that Requirement is low too. Good thing I dont work at USPANever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauraliscious 0 #4 April 9, 2008 I agree. Coach requirements are too low. Having to pay 100-jump wonders to "coach" me when they weren't anywhere near me on the skydive and didn't teach me anything really made me feel lost after AFF. I quit jumping for 11 months at 17 jumps, and a lot of it had to do with lousy coaching. Luckily I went to a new DZ that had a more structured program and got back into it. I finally felt ready to get my coach rating at around 275 jumps. I also think the AFF requirements are too low. I am eligible right now, but don't feel that I am anywhere near ready to go for my AFFI rating. Some people might be ready at 100 jumps to be a coach or at 6 hours of freefall to be an AFFI. But I think the majority of people are NOT. Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,424 #5 April 9, 2008 Since your asking, I'll offer my opinion of which I know that I'm in the minority... IMO there should also be a two or the old three year "time in sport" to earn an Instructional rating. As to jump numbers... I find a certain sense of irony in that 200 jumps is the recommended number for learning how to fly a camera, but 100 is the recommended number for being able to learn how to train students.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #6 April 9, 2008 The requirement is way too low. Most jumpers with 100 jumps are not ready to coach anyone. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #7 April 9, 2008 I understand that there is a three year Requirement to get a Instructor rating. AFF, Tandem, or Static line. There is no Requirement on time for coach rating. I had a 100 jumps three months after my first tandem. Ill tell you at 100 jumps I thought I knew a lot. Now where I am at I think I dont know much lol. Its funny the higher my jump numbers get the less I think I know. Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #8 April 9, 2008 Quote Some people might be ready at 100 jumps to be a coach or at 6 hours of freefall to be an AFFI. But I think the majority of people are NOT. And those are the people that should not pass the coaches or Instructors course. "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 April 9, 2008 I think it should be 2 years, 400 jumps minimum. Is there a shortage of coaches?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #10 April 9, 2008 QuoteIll tell you at 100 jumps I thought I knew a lot. Quote I concur with this statement. In fact it may be a bit of an understatement, being you were the first student I ever had who wanted to wear a camera while on AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pashakiev 0 #11 April 9, 2008 From where I'm @ it looks like this regulates itself. Have not seen anyone with a 100 jumps coaching anyone. so "you can go for it" minimum limit is not changing anything though. 100% agree that "coaching" rating should be held by experienced folks and 100 - 200 jumps is not the number for sure, Especially if there charges involved (don't think anyone with any experience will want to pay for a jump with another wonder... :):):) ~~~ Again... Is This An Issue At Your Dropzone? Thank you and blue skiesLess Bitching / More Jumping..... Please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #12 April 9, 2008 Quote Quote Ill tell you at 100 jumps I thought I knew a lot. Quote I concur with this statement. In fact it may be a bit of an understatement, being you were the first student I ever had who wanted to wear a camera while on AFF. Hey it made good videoNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #13 April 9, 2008 Another problem with a low requirement is the fact we are setting the new Coach up for failure and disappointment. Let me elaborate. Here is a eager jumper with 100 jumps who is doing the right thing and furthering his/her education in the sport, because they are elibible by USPA standards. Once they earn the rating and come to the DZ all full of piss and vinegar ready to start working with students, it seems that more experienced jumpers are making them feel as if they are inadequate due to low jump numbers. "What can a 100 jump skydiver teach me" This immediately has a negative effect on their attitude towards teaching. True this comes from a lack of understanding of what the Coach course teaches but it is the reality of what a new coach has to face. I have seen it and heard it. It is difficult to educate older jumpers when the general sensus is that the requirement is to low. If you subtract the 25 jumps it takes to get your A license, that leaves 75 jumps to dial in skills to effectively fly with a student. So strictly air wise, the requirement should be looked at again. I do know it has been brought up for review in the past and has been voted down for one reason or another. Please keep in mind that a skydiver with 100 jumps can absolutely be an excellent teacher and instructor, and I have seen them in action. The low requirement just makes the mentor progression a bit more difficult on the instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JustChuteMeNow 0 #14 April 9, 2008 There are people with 100 jumps and a lot of tunnel time that can easily pass the coaches course. Then again there are people with 300 jumps who can't pass the coaches course because they don't know how to fly on their belly. IMO no one should be a coach unless they can pass the standard. But if they pass the standard and the course directors are doing their jobs, the coach candidates have shown the competency and proficiency needed to work with students. Jumpers who have just completed AFF have a lot of learning to do and coaches can help fill that gap if they are competent. That statement again implies that the coaches have earned the rating. I guess what I'm saying is that there are piss poor coaches with 500 jumps and there are great coaches with barely a 100 jumps. Competency and attitude determine a good coach and not just an arbitrary jump number.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #15 April 9, 2008 I agree with what you are saying, there are always exceptions. If we look a bit further into it, I suspect that smaller Cesna Drop Zones probably have less of an issue with this than the larger multi plane DZ's. What would the harm be of making it 200? The worst case scenario is the jumper has 100 more jumps under his belt. Is it that much to ask to say hey work on your skills and you will be eligible at 200? Or how about he/she can start to teach on the ground at 100 and in the air after 200. Just a thought. This might be better suited in Instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JustChuteMeNow 0 #16 April 9, 2008 QuoteWhat would the harm be of making it 200? I don't think there would be any harm in doing it and it would increase the standard BUT if we make it 200 people will still bitch that it is too low and that coaches aren't qualified. Like I said earlier, if a person can meet the standard then they should get a rating. If they haven't met the standard then they haven't earned a rating and they should try again when they are more qualified. I jump at a small Cessna DZ in Iowa and our coaches don't even charge. They got ratings so that they could legally jump with newer jumpers. That said our instructors don't charge for coach jumps either. I think it is called giving back to the sport. I think it is a great system and it has benefited the coaches and the newer jumpers and our sport.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #17 April 9, 2008 One of the very few valid arguements would be exactly what you are describing the small Cesna DZ. It seems to be more relaxed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #18 April 9, 2008 Quote I understand that there is a three year Requirement to get a Instructor rating. AFF, Tandem, or Static line. There is no Requirement on time for coach rating. I had a 100 jumps three months after my first tandem. Ill tell you at 100 jumps I thought I knew a lot. Now where I am at I think I dont know much lol. Its funny the higher my jump numbers get the less I think I know. Ok I was just IM and Tandems Instructor is the only one that you have to wait Three years for. Thank you for making me aware of that.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jheadley 0 #19 April 9, 2008 100 jumps is far too few, and I say that as a person who got his coach rating with 120 belly jumps. I didn't have the flying skills to really do it well until # 300 or so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #20 April 9, 2008 I agree if you earn a rating then its all good. Its my feeling with 400+ jumps that I have a lot to learn. Looking back when I had 100 jumps I really didn't know anything. (THINKING I DID KNOW EVERYTHING) I got my coach rating around 150 jumps. Did I earn it. You better believe I did. One of the main reasons for that was because of the rep i had. Looking back yea I flew with students and gave them a good de-briefing. Now I think I give them a better over all product. From start to finish.Will I become a better coach two years from now. I sure hope so. With experience we evolve hopefully becoming better. I just think taking more time to hone your own skills in before teaching others is a good idea. I think looking back 200 would have bin better for me and the studentsNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #21 April 10, 2008 Quote100 jumps is far too few, and I say that as a person who got his coach rating with 120 belly jumps. I didn't have the flying skills to really do it well until # 300 or so. That's not a problem with jump numbers, that's a problem with the evaluator. If you can prove that you can do the job you should get the rating. If you can't, you shouldn't. Period.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #22 April 10, 2008 >Most jumpers with 100 jumps are not ready to coach anyone. When I had just over 100 jumps I got my jumpmaster rating. (Scary, eh?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #23 April 10, 2008 QuoteThe requirement is way too low. Most jumpers with 100 jumps are not ready to coach anyone. I agree, many with 100 jumps still need coaching themselves. However with the recent propagation of Wind tunnels in the USofA, I would say that if a skydiver has a certain level of proficiency, and can be repeatedly demostrated to a CI or Instructor examiner, than the jump numbers can be waived.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #24 April 10, 2008 Quote If you can prove that you can do the job you should get the rating. If you can't, you shouldn't. Period. well way before the 'rating' was even available i often found myself jumping with new to intermediate level jumpers and offering 'to lay a base' for them, and let them dock and then backslide and let them dock again, etc etc paying my own lift ticket all the while, and asking nothing in return,,,,, and THEN 20 years later USPA names it a "coach" rating..... and so I attend and complete all requirements to become legally "qualified" to do something that I had proven myself capable of, decades ago..... and then i jam a shoulder, and "get layed off" for a year or so, and come to find out that if I don't make "X " number of coach jumps a year,,,,, my rating has lapsed..... so I guess Now I have been deemed no longer capable of coaching someone,,, not based on my abilities or lack thereof, but on a stipulated number of times, that i need to prove my worth, each year.... i've hesitated to bring this up, at our club, but when you have a dz with 8 or 10 coaches, and most of them do NOT do more than a dozen or so coach jumps a season,,,and many do UNDER 10 a season, doesn't that mean that most of these coach ratings have been nullified????Are we on the honor system ?? in that regard , or do people simply ignore the "currency" requirement...? and continue to coach??, as I did for years before i was "rated"....?? I admit that i haven't checked recently to see that actual # of coach jumps one must DO, to stay current.... can anyone tell me what that # currently IS.????my guess would be in the range of 20 or so.... thanks... signed "sure I'll jump with ya' " jimmy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #25 April 10, 2008 KEEPING A USPA COACH RATING CURRENT 1. USPA Coaches may annually renew their ratings with their USPA membership by paying the annual rating renewal fee and providing documentation, signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner or member of the USPA Board, of any of the following: a. that the rating was initially earned within the previous 12 months b. having taught or assisted with the general portion of at least one first-jump course and made at least 15 coaching jumps in the last 12 months c. completing the renewal requirements for an expired USPA Coach rating 2. A skydiver may not certify his or her own rating renewal requirements. 3. 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pashakiev 0 #11 April 9, 2008 From where I'm @ it looks like this regulates itself. Have not seen anyone with a 100 jumps coaching anyone. so "you can go for it" minimum limit is not changing anything though. 100% agree that "coaching" rating should be held by experienced folks and 100 - 200 jumps is not the number for sure, Especially if there charges involved (don't think anyone with any experience will want to pay for a jump with another wonder... :):):) ~~~ Again... Is This An Issue At Your Dropzone? Thank you and blue skiesLess Bitching / More Jumping..... Please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #12 April 9, 2008 Quote Quote Ill tell you at 100 jumps I thought I knew a lot. Quote I concur with this statement. In fact it may be a bit of an understatement, being you were the first student I ever had who wanted to wear a camera while on AFF. Hey it made good videoNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #13 April 9, 2008 Another problem with a low requirement is the fact we are setting the new Coach up for failure and disappointment. Let me elaborate. Here is a eager jumper with 100 jumps who is doing the right thing and furthering his/her education in the sport, because they are elibible by USPA standards. Once they earn the rating and come to the DZ all full of piss and vinegar ready to start working with students, it seems that more experienced jumpers are making them feel as if they are inadequate due to low jump numbers. "What can a 100 jump skydiver teach me" This immediately has a negative effect on their attitude towards teaching. True this comes from a lack of understanding of what the Coach course teaches but it is the reality of what a new coach has to face. I have seen it and heard it. It is difficult to educate older jumpers when the general sensus is that the requirement is to low. If you subtract the 25 jumps it takes to get your A license, that leaves 75 jumps to dial in skills to effectively fly with a student. So strictly air wise, the requirement should be looked at again. I do know it has been brought up for review in the past and has been voted down for one reason or another. Please keep in mind that a skydiver with 100 jumps can absolutely be an excellent teacher and instructor, and I have seen them in action. The low requirement just makes the mentor progression a bit more difficult on the instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #14 April 9, 2008 There are people with 100 jumps and a lot of tunnel time that can easily pass the coaches course. Then again there are people with 300 jumps who can't pass the coaches course because they don't know how to fly on their belly. IMO no one should be a coach unless they can pass the standard. But if they pass the standard and the course directors are doing their jobs, the coach candidates have shown the competency and proficiency needed to work with students. Jumpers who have just completed AFF have a lot of learning to do and coaches can help fill that gap if they are competent. That statement again implies that the coaches have earned the rating. I guess what I'm saying is that there are piss poor coaches with 500 jumps and there are great coaches with barely a 100 jumps. Competency and attitude determine a good coach and not just an arbitrary jump number.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #15 April 9, 2008 I agree with what you are saying, there are always exceptions. If we look a bit further into it, I suspect that smaller Cesna Drop Zones probably have less of an issue with this than the larger multi plane DZ's. What would the harm be of making it 200? The worst case scenario is the jumper has 100 more jumps under his belt. Is it that much to ask to say hey work on your skills and you will be eligible at 200? Or how about he/she can start to teach on the ground at 100 and in the air after 200. Just a thought. This might be better suited in Instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #16 April 9, 2008 QuoteWhat would the harm be of making it 200? I don't think there would be any harm in doing it and it would increase the standard BUT if we make it 200 people will still bitch that it is too low and that coaches aren't qualified. Like I said earlier, if a person can meet the standard then they should get a rating. If they haven't met the standard then they haven't earned a rating and they should try again when they are more qualified. I jump at a small Cessna DZ in Iowa and our coaches don't even charge. They got ratings so that they could legally jump with newer jumpers. That said our instructors don't charge for coach jumps either. I think it is called giving back to the sport. I think it is a great system and it has benefited the coaches and the newer jumpers and our sport.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #17 April 9, 2008 One of the very few valid arguements would be exactly what you are describing the small Cesna DZ. It seems to be more relaxed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #18 April 9, 2008 Quote I understand that there is a three year Requirement to get a Instructor rating. AFF, Tandem, or Static line. There is no Requirement on time for coach rating. I had a 100 jumps three months after my first tandem. Ill tell you at 100 jumps I thought I knew a lot. Now where I am at I think I dont know much lol. Its funny the higher my jump numbers get the less I think I know. Ok I was just IM and Tandems Instructor is the only one that you have to wait Three years for. Thank you for making me aware of that.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #19 April 9, 2008 100 jumps is far too few, and I say that as a person who got his coach rating with 120 belly jumps. I didn't have the flying skills to really do it well until # 300 or so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #20 April 9, 2008 I agree if you earn a rating then its all good. Its my feeling with 400+ jumps that I have a lot to learn. Looking back when I had 100 jumps I really didn't know anything. (THINKING I DID KNOW EVERYTHING) I got my coach rating around 150 jumps. Did I earn it. You better believe I did. One of the main reasons for that was because of the rep i had. Looking back yea I flew with students and gave them a good de-briefing. Now I think I give them a better over all product. From start to finish.Will I become a better coach two years from now. I sure hope so. With experience we evolve hopefully becoming better. I just think taking more time to hone your own skills in before teaching others is a good idea. I think looking back 200 would have bin better for me and the studentsNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #21 April 10, 2008 Quote100 jumps is far too few, and I say that as a person who got his coach rating with 120 belly jumps. I didn't have the flying skills to really do it well until # 300 or so. That's not a problem with jump numbers, that's a problem with the evaluator. If you can prove that you can do the job you should get the rating. If you can't, you shouldn't. Period.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #22 April 10, 2008 >Most jumpers with 100 jumps are not ready to coach anyone. When I had just over 100 jumps I got my jumpmaster rating. (Scary, eh?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #23 April 10, 2008 QuoteThe requirement is way too low. Most jumpers with 100 jumps are not ready to coach anyone. I agree, many with 100 jumps still need coaching themselves. However with the recent propagation of Wind tunnels in the USofA, I would say that if a skydiver has a certain level of proficiency, and can be repeatedly demostrated to a CI or Instructor examiner, than the jump numbers can be waived.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #24 April 10, 2008 Quote If you can prove that you can do the job you should get the rating. If you can't, you shouldn't. Period. well way before the 'rating' was even available i often found myself jumping with new to intermediate level jumpers and offering 'to lay a base' for them, and let them dock and then backslide and let them dock again, etc etc paying my own lift ticket all the while, and asking nothing in return,,,,, and THEN 20 years later USPA names it a "coach" rating..... and so I attend and complete all requirements to become legally "qualified" to do something that I had proven myself capable of, decades ago..... and then i jam a shoulder, and "get layed off" for a year or so, and come to find out that if I don't make "X " number of coach jumps a year,,,,, my rating has lapsed..... so I guess Now I have been deemed no longer capable of coaching someone,,, not based on my abilities or lack thereof, but on a stipulated number of times, that i need to prove my worth, each year.... i've hesitated to bring this up, at our club, but when you have a dz with 8 or 10 coaches, and most of them do NOT do more than a dozen or so coach jumps a season,,,and many do UNDER 10 a season, doesn't that mean that most of these coach ratings have been nullified????Are we on the honor system ?? in that regard , or do people simply ignore the "currency" requirement...? and continue to coach??, as I did for years before i was "rated"....?? I admit that i haven't checked recently to see that actual # of coach jumps one must DO, to stay current.... can anyone tell me what that # currently IS.????my guess would be in the range of 20 or so.... thanks... signed "sure I'll jump with ya' " jimmy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #25 April 10, 2008 KEEPING A USPA COACH RATING CURRENT 1. USPA Coaches may annually renew their ratings with their USPA membership by paying the annual rating renewal fee and providing documentation, signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner or member of the USPA Board, of any of the following: a. that the rating was initially earned within the previous 12 months b. having taught or assisted with the general portion of at least one first-jump course and made at least 15 coaching jumps in the last 12 months c. completing the renewal requirements for an expired USPA Coach rating 2. A skydiver may not certify his or her own rating renewal requirements. 3. Renewing a higher rating automatically renews a USPA Coach Rating Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
