Can Utah Save America?

[jakee 1,643]

18 minutes ago, dogyks said:

If I'm in the cockpit, I want a high level of assurance that the person beside me will handle an emergency swiftly and efficiently, full stop.  If race or sex comes into the equation, they can deal with that elsewhere.

And where do you get that assurance? Training, not recruiting. 

Is it logged anywhere how well you did on your multi engine instrument checkride? It is not, just whether you passed. Is it logged anywhere how well you did on your commercial check ride? It is not, just whether you passed. Were you the best student the examiner ever saw or did you just scrape through because they had somewhere else to be and didn't want to spend the extra time explaining exactly why you failed? No one knows but them and the wallpaper.

So they'll probably beast you on that during the assessment process, right? Errrr, no. In the sim you'll quite possibly just hand fly a takeoff and hold an altitude and heading, maybe track to a VOR and then hand fly a raw data ILS. That's literally all they'll see of you in the cockpit. They might well still hire you if you fuck  up the ILS towards the end as long as you make a good go-around decision.

But they'll sure as hell spend way more time talking to you in the interviews than they will finding out how well you can fly and if you think that process is guaranteed free of personal bias and always finding the most capable man for the job then I've got a bridge to sell you. 

What they will get is one of many applicants whose qualifications and personal presentation is good enough and their internal training and standards department will take care of the rest by the time the new hire is unsupervised out on the line. That's how the real world works, not this insane fantasy that recruitment is such an exact science that only the best will ever make it as long as that evil DEI doesn't get in the way.

[JoeWeber 3,019]

Just now, dogyks said:

If I'm in the cockpit, I want a high level of assurance that the person beside me will handle an emergency swiftly and efficiently, full stop. 

Perfectly reasonable, but how does an individuals credentials guarantee that they won't choke when the shit hits the fan?

[dogyks 30]

5 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Perfectly reasonable, but how does an individuals credentials guarantee that they won't choke when the shit hits the fan?

Credentials don't.  I made reference to 'a high level of assurance.'

An ATP whose youth was spent flying close air support in the Marines is a lot less likely to panic when things get interesting than is a green FO who's still getting things figured out.

When the red lights start flashing and key systems go down, the Marine is in his or her element.

A senior engineer with a P. E. is a lot less likely to make a technical blunder than a junior engineer who got enough of a GPA to get a BS, but is still a bit fuzzy on the nuances of Thermodynamics or Organic Chemistry.

FWIW, the PE exam is nearly impossible to cheat your way through - you either know the material or you don't.  I never worked with a PE who didn't show mastery, but I've worked with MS and PhD engineers with amazing weaknesses.

I've flown with pilots and worked with engineers, male and female, from all over the world (none from Antarctica), and I'll take talent and work ethic over identity every time.

[jakee 1,643]

13 minutes ago, dogyks said:

Credentials don't.  I made reference to 'a high level of assurance.'

An ATP whose youth was spent flying close air support in the Marines is a lot less likely to panic when things get interesting than is a green FO who's still getting things figured out.

When the red lights start flashing and key systems go down, the Marine is in his or her element.

Ok, so the solution is to never hire a pilot for a flying job who hasn't already had a demanding flying job. Cool cool. You uh, haven't really thought this through, have you?

Quote

A senior engineer with a P. E. is a lot less likely to make a technical blunder than a junior engineer who got enough of a GPA to get a BS, but is still a bit fuzzy on the nuances of Thermodynamics or Organic Chemistry.

Again - how do you figure the senior engineer got to be a senior engineer without working as a junior engineer first?

Edited September 15 by jakee

[billvon 3,169]

4 hours ago, dogyks said:

If I'm in the cockpit, I want a high level of assurance that the person beside me will handle an emergency swiftly and efficiently, full stop.  If race or sex comes into the equation, they can deal with that elsewhere.

Three people come to mind for that.

The first was Stacey Markus.  Beautiful black woman.  She was one of my flight instructors when I got my private.  One day we were doing the first (supervised) cross country.  Did a short field takeoff, but when I retracted flaps, one came up and the other one didn't.  Wasn't a huge problem (I could correct with ailerons) but it really worried Stacey and she got indecisive.  "Should I cycle them?" "No!  Don't do anything that could make it worse!"  "Should we declare an emergency?"  "No!"  "Should we - uh - just continue with the cross country?"  (seemed like a bad idea)  "No!"  "OK, I'm going to - uh - clear the ATA and then come back in and land."  "OK" she said.  "Don't touch the flaps!"

We came back in to land.  Out of habit I dropped the flaps.  They both came down.  We landed.  She didn't say anything; just walked back to the FBO.  I tied the plane down and then we talked about the flight.  She seemed shaken.

About a month later I heard she got a job with US Air.  "Affirmative action!" I declared.  "She panicked over a minor problem while I was cool and collected!  She's a terrible pilot!"

The second was Harry Rosenblatt.  He was our pilot at Skydive Long Island.  Seemed like a good pilot; got to know him pretty well.  White straight male so no DEI there!  But a little nervous; Ray the irate DZO could really rattle him. 

One day he lost power on the climbout.  He entered the downwind; at that point he was pointed at a 600 acre sod farm.  He tried to make it back to the runway anyway.  He managed to hit it, but in the impact he died, the JM was paralyzed and all three students were injured.  I was with him for half an hour while he slowly died of massive head injuries.

Third was Will Forshay.  Got to know him through his wife.  He was flying jumpers somewhere and we would talk about flying; he'd complain about the cheapskate DZs who were always pushing him to ignore issues with the airplane.  Also a white straight guy.  Not the best pilot perhaps but decent enough.  In 2003 he had moved on to cargo, and was flying a Falcon DA-20 into Toledo.  He forgot to turn on the anti-ice, let his speed get too low, stalled and spun in.  All three on board were killed.

I checked in on Stacey a while back.  She's retired after flying 757's for 13 years for UPS.

Who would you rather be in the cockpit with?

[billvon 3,169]

1 hour ago, dogyks said:

When the red lights start flashing and key systems go down, the Marine is in his or her element.

So it would be better to hire the Marine, all things considered, because of a more diverse set of experiences from his military flight experience.  Over a straight white guy who is related to the chief pilot.

How very DEI of you.

[JoeWeber 3,019]

Just now, dogyks said:

Credentials don't.  I made reference to 'a high level of assurance.'

An ATP whose youth was spent flying close air support in the Marines is a lot less likely to panic when things get interesting than is a green FO who's still getting things figured out.

When the red lights start flashing and key systems go down, the Marine is in his or her element.

A senior engineer with a P. E. is a lot less likely to make a technical blunder than a junior engineer who got enough of a GPA to get a BS, but is still a bit fuzzy on the nuances of Thermodynamics or Organic Chemistry.

FWIW, the PE exam is nearly impossible to cheat your way through - you either know the material or you don't.  I never worked with a PE who didn't show mastery, but I've worked with MS and PhD engineers with amazing weaknesses.

I've flown with pilots and worked with engineers, male and female, from all over the world (none from Antarctica), and I'll take talent and work ethic over identity every time.

The guy who taught me to fly in a C-120 and became a life long friend wanted to fly jumpers 20 years later. Smart guy, Army Captain, time in Nam, ATP, A&P, flew charters for years and so on. No matter, I sent him to the SIM and put him through the training like everyone else. 7 hours of SIM and a 100 jump flights in the left seat later he was turning final with my most senior pilot in the right seat ready to cut him loose when, violating company procedure to look at any power quadrant control you are touching before moving it, he reached over and pull back the condition lever. Before he could move it back and torch the engine my pilot put down his hand blocking him and landed the aircraft. He was a personal friend and as white male as they come but you only get one of those, news he couldn't believe he was hearing from a friend. Based on his history he should have been golden, instead he was just white.

[dogyks 30]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The guy who taught me to fly in a C-120 and became a life long friend wanted to fly jumpers 20 years later. Smart guy, Army Captain, time in Nam, ATP, A&P, flew charters for years and so on. No matter, I sent him to the SIM and put him through the training like everyone else. 7 hours of SIM and a 100 jump flights in the left seat later he was turning final with my most senior pilot in the right seat ready to cut him loose when, violating company procedure to look at any power quadrant control you are touching before moving it, he reached over and pull back the condition lever. Before he could move it back and torch the engine my pilot put down his hand blocking him and landed the aircraft. He was a personal friend and as white male as they come but you only get one of those, news he couldn't believe he was hearing from a friend. Based on his history he should have been golden, instead he was just white.

You'll note that I made reference to 'a high level of assurance' rather than a 'guarantee.'

Nobody bats a thousand.

[JerryBaumchen 1,486]

1 hour ago, dogyks said:

Credentials don't.  I made reference to 'a high level of assurance.'

An ATP whose youth was spent flying close air support in the Marines is a lot less likely to panic when things get interesting than is a green FO who's still getting things figured out.

When the red lights start flashing and key systems go down, the Marine is in his or her element.

A senior engineer with a P. E. is a lot less likely to make a technical blunder than a junior engineer who got enough of a GPA to get a BS, but is still a bit fuzzy on the nuances of Thermodynamics or Organic Chemistry.

FWIW, the PE exam is nearly impossible to cheat your way through - you either know the material or you don't.  I never worked with a PE who didn't show mastery, but I've worked with MS and PhD engineers with amazing weaknesses.

I've flown with pilots and worked with engineers, male and female, from all over the world (none from Antarctica), and I'll take talent and work ethic over identity every time.

Hi dogyks,

Re:   I never worked with a PE who didn't show mastery, but I've worked with MS and PhD engineers with amazing weaknesses.

Looks like we have quite different experiences.  I spent 30 yrs working for a federal agency with over 600 engineers.  About 1/3 were PE's.  From my experience, the PE's were no better than those without the ticket.

Jerry Baumchen

Former PE

 

[JoeWeber 3,019]

5 hours ago, dogyks said:

You'll note that I made reference to 'a high level of assurance' rather than a 'guarantee.'

Nobody bats a thousand.

I did. I'll guess I'm more in agreement with you on some things than other liberals here. That said, I do think your fog lines are a little too close to where the traffic drives sometimes.

Edited September 16 by JoeWeber

[jakee 1,643]

On 9/14/2025 at 7:27 PM, richravizza said:

So what better way to squash the very principles of the western canon,free speech and open debate,what's the point in finding common ground? The squish requires irony alright, Cowardice must be another word the left has co-oped to mean the opposite Like Fascism,catch! 

Trump has just announced he's suing the New York Times for fifteen BILLION dollars because they endorsed Kamala. 

Is that a better way to squash the western principle of free speech?

Edited September 16 by jakee

[dogyks 30]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I did. I'll guess I'm more in agreement with you on some things than other liberals here. That said, I do think your fog lines are a little too close to where the traffic drives sometimes.

I'm actually a social liberal and fiscal conservative.  It works out to libertarian of sorts.

I generally don't care what voluntary adults do behind closed doors or what invisible friends they have, so long as their ideology doesn't require that they do my thinking for me or put me, personally, to death.  Mein Kampf and the Koran specifically mandate my summary execution, a standpoint for which I am unapologetically intolerant.

The fiscal conservative part is that, regardless of how good an idea it is, who's going to pay for it?

I'm not more impressed by the lunacy of the left or right.  Just because one side is as fucked up as a football bat, that doesn't make the other any better.

I think Poe's Law applies as well to politics as it does to religion.  Then again, historically speaking, they are often one and the same.

Actually, if anyone agreed with me 100% I'd be concerned.

 

[base698 20]

On 9/14/2025 at 9:26 PM, murps2000 said:

Does it have to be video? 

https://zeteo.com/p/charlie-kirk-in-his-own-words

He should not have been killed for anything he said or for any reason at all. Unfortunately this seems to be who we are.

Yes video helps because then you can see the context.  A single snippet in a 4-5 minute statement is dishonest. 

Quick examples: the empathy quote one, he states we should have sympathy not empathy, because you can't walk in someone else's shoes.  People deserve sympathy.  

The black pilot one was about DEI, not that black pilots were overall unqualified.  It was Because DEI, I think this.  

[kallend 2,212]

14 hours ago, billvon said:

So it would be better to hire the Marine, all things considered, because of a more diverse set of experiences from his military flight experience.  Over a straight white guy who is related to the chief pilot.

How very DEI of you.

Straight white cisgender English speaking male with no medical issues here.

I turn 80 at the end of this month.  Despite having owned and flown a plane for the past 40 years without any incidents, infractions or insurance claims, my insurance company informs me that they will no longer insure me to fly solo in my plane with retractable landing gear**, starting on my birthday.  I now have to be baby-sit by another pilot.

Kinda anti-woke of them. 

 

**(Apparently a plane with fixed gear is OK. Anyone want to buy a Mooney?)

Edited September 16 by kallend

[Phil1111 1,260]

19 minutes ago, kallend said:

Straight white cisgender English speaking male with no medical issues here.

I turn 80 at the end of this month.  Despite having owned and flown a plane for the past 40 years without any incidents, infractions or insurance claims, my insurance company informs me that they will no longer insure me to fly solo in my plane with retractable landing gear**, starting on my birthday.  I now have to be baby-sit by another pilot.

Kinda anti-woke of them. 

 

**(Apparently a plane with fixed gear is OK. Anyone want to buy a Mooney?)

I'm sure there are other insurers. F-them. Or get a exemption of coverage in the event of a gear up landing.

You can't sell a Mooney for a fixed gear. Retractable gear was invented to save the environment.

On the positive side you're three years older than Bob Hoover when he parked his headset for the last time.

Edited September 16 by Phil1111

[gowlerk 2,302]

18 minutes ago, kallend said:

Straight white cisgender English speaking male with no medical issues here.

I turn 80 at the end of this month.  Despite having owned and flown a plane for the past 40 years without any incidents, infractions or insurance claims, my insurance company informs me that they will no longer insure me to fly solo in my plane with retractable landing gear**, starting on my birthday.  I now have to be baby-sit by another pilot.

Kinda anti-woke of them. 

 

**(Apparently a plane with fixed gear is OK. Anyone want to buy a Mooney?)

Hull insurance, who cares? Let them just try to pry that yoke out of your cold dead hands.

• No federal mandate for private GA: 

  The FAA does not require private, general aviation aircraft owners to carry any form of insurance. 

Edited September 16 by gowlerk

[jakee 1,643]

4 minutes ago, base698 said:

The black pilot one was about DEI, not that black pilots were overall unqualified.  It was Because DEI, I think this.  

You understand how stupid and racist it is to think that though, right? 

And here’s the thing - no one ever worried about all the white men in those roles when only white men were being hired, did they? Like - the first black woman to be a USAF pilot retired from the airlines last year. So we’re not just talking about airline hiring in the ‘50s and ‘60s. In the ‘70s, ‘80s, ‘90s and even somewhat in the ‘00s it will have been the default to hire white men. Does anyone ever look at a late middle age captain getting on a plane and think well damn I sure hope that guy’s qualified, he might just have the job because he’s a white man!’?

[dogyks 30]

45 minutes ago, kallend said:

Straight white cisgender English speaking male with no medical issues here.

I turn 80 at the end of this month.  Despite having owned and flown a plane for the past 40 years without any incidents, infractions or insurance claims, my insurance company informs me that they will no longer insure me to fly solo in my plane with retractable landing gear**, starting on my birthday.  I now have to be baby-sit by another pilot.

Kinda anti-woke of them. 

 

**(Apparently a plane with fixed gear is OK. Anyone want to buy a Mooney?)

You'd be disappointed by the speed of my Cherokee, but it's kept me alive for 40 years.  It has new Imron, new interior, <200 hours SMOH, performance exhaust (lowers valve temperature), all the fairing mods, vortex generators that make it tough to stall (buffets but won't break at ~35 KTS), ADS-B in and out and a fairly decent stack.

It looks a lot nicer than the last time you saw it.

I'd be cool with swapping use but retaining ownership - your son inherits your plane and my son inherits mine - and I'd maintain your plane like my life depended on it.

I don't fly for the airline anymore - went back to engineering - but have over 6,000 hours in all sorts of aircraft without bending anything.

I've known you long enough to trust you, and the offer is sincere.  You should be able to fly.

[JerryBaumchen 1,486]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

Straight white cisgender English speaking male with no medical issues here.

I turn 80 at the end of this month.  Despite having owned and flown a plane for the past 40 years without any incidents, infractions or insurance claims, my insurance company informs me that they will no longer insure me to fly solo in my plane with retractable landing gear**, starting on my birthday.  I now have to be baby-sit by another pilot.

Kinda anti-woke of them. 

 

**(Apparently a plane with fixed gear is OK. Anyone want to buy a Mooney?)

Hi John,

Re:  my insurance company informs me that they will no longer insure me

I turn 85 in two days.  I had been with State Farm, for all of my cars, for 39 yrs.  When I turned 70, they nearly doubled my insurance costs.  When I asked, they said it was because I was driving more.  I keep really good records of all of my cars; I was actually driving less.

I went to USAA & have never looked back.

Nobody likes old people; except their families.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 3,169]

6 hours ago, base698 said:

The black pilot one was about DEI, not that black pilots were overall unqualified.  It was Because DEI, I think this.  

I made that mistake early in my flying career.  Fortunately I learned from it.

[richravizza 30]

On 9/16/2025 at 11:01 AM, JerryBaumchen said:

Nobody likes old people; except their families.

HI Jerry,

As always thank you for your perspective, I am uniquely pleased that I can disagree with your quote.lol

Happy Birthday

 

Edited September 18 by richravizza

[Phil1111 1,260]

On 9/16/2025 at 12:01 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,....

I turn 85 in two days. ....

Nobody likes old people; except their families.

Jerry Baumchen

Happy birthday Jerry

Everybody likes old people here.

From all your friends in SC.

[wmw999 2,638]

Yes, happy birthday!

Wendy P.

[GeorgiaDon 401]

Happy birthday!

Don

[JerryBaumchen 1,486]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Happy birthday!

Don

Hi all of you,

Thanks - and this is me 84 yrs ago.

Jerry Baumchen