Fun in the pattern

[billvon 3,090]

I was getting checked out in a new airplane the other day, flying at our formerly sleepy GA airport.  That formerly sleepy GA airport just got two scheduled American flights a day, which means 1) a ton more security and 2) more new tower controllers.  (I am assuming that since now we are a "real" airport, it's a better place to train them.)

Anyway - 

On final for a short-field landing the tower calls out "2LK, your traffic is a Challenger 604."  We had been told to follow a low wing Piper, and he was just taxiing off the runway.

"What is he talking about?" I asked Paige (the CFI doing the checkout.)

"Traffic in sight, 2LK", she said on the radio.  "Sorry, he was going to make us go around again if we didn't say we saw that Challenger."

"Where is it?" I asked.

"Over there," she said, pointing to the taxiway.  Sure enough there was a Challenger (midsize bizjet) taxiing towards the runway.

"Sunjet 17, clear for takeoff, no delay, traffic on short final."  We were about 1/4 mile out at that point.

"I think I want to go around anyway," I said.  "We're like 15 seconds out."

"If he's not off by the time we start the flare, then go around."

He got on the runway and powered up, we crossed the threshold, and he was just rotating when we started the flare.  We landed, did the touch and go, and climbed out again.  The whole time the ADS-B was blaring "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC" since we were so close to the Challenger.

We got downwind again and the tower said "2LK your traffic is a Vision at your 3 o'clock."  I didn't see him and I told him that.  Paige was looking at the ADS-B display and said "there he is, he's like three miles out."  (Which would be at our 12 or 1 o'clock at that point.)  We waited until he was almost abeam and said "Traffic in sight 2LK."  Tower said "2LK follow the Vision, you are #2 after the vision."  (I've been paranoid about this because once a few months back I turned base without the tower telling me to, and got yelled at.)

We turned and got set up on final.  Again on short final the tower said "2LK turn your base, you will be following the Cessna."  Oh shit I thought - did I manage to miss a call AGAIN?  "2LK is on short final," I said.  Paige was looking puzzled as well.

"08Z go around!" the tower called immediately.  Now both of us were getting panicked.  Was 08Z right above us or something?  "Uh - tower - 08Z is on downwind," that plane called in.  "08Z cancel - cancel go around instruction.  Do you have traffic in sight?"  "We do not have traffic in sight, 08Z.  What is our traffic?"

Which meant he was NOT right above us.  I asked Paige "so did you ever actually hear him say we were cleared to land?"  Paige immediately transmitted "is 2LK clear to land?"  "Yes, sorry, 2LK clear to land."

We landed a few seconds later and Paige said "this is nuts, let's just get off the runway."  So we taxiied off while the tower apologized again.

I don't know if this is indicative of what's happening at other airports with all the ATC firings, but it was pretty scary.  The airport is busy enough that mistakes like that could cause serious problems.

[kallend 2,117]

Stories like that make me glad I'm based at an uncontrolled field where ADS-B out is required.  At least  other pilots seem to have situational awareness.

[BIGUN 1,439]

4 hours ago, billvon said:

I don't know if this is indicative of what's happening at other airports with all the ATC firings, but it was pretty scary. 

I don't know if it's indicative of the time. I have stories. Bill Mitchell has stories  . . .

[JoeWeber 2,869]

18 hours ago, billvon said:

I was getting checked out in a new airplane the other day, flying at our formerly sleepy GA airport.  That formerly sleepy GA airport just got two scheduled American flights a day, which means 1) a ton more security and 2) more new tower controllers.  (I am assuming that since now we are a "real" airport, it's a better place to train them.)

Anyway - 

On final for a short-field landing the tower calls out "2LK, your traffic is a Challenger 604."  We had been told to follow a low wing Piper, and he was just taxiing off the runway.

"What is he talking about?" I asked Paige (the CFI doing the checkout.)

"Traffic in sight, 2LK", she said on the radio.  "Sorry, he was going to make us go around again if we didn't say we saw that Challenger."

"Where is it?" I asked.

"Over there," she said, pointing to the taxiway.  Sure enough there was a Challenger (midsize bizjet) taxiing towards the runway.

"Sunjet 17, clear for takeoff, no delay, traffic on short final."  We were about 1/4 mile out at that point.

"I think I want to go around anyway," I said.  "We're like 15 seconds out."

"If he's not off by the time we start the flare, then go around."

He got on the runway and powered up, we crossed the threshold, and he was just rotating when we started the flare.  We landed, did the touch and go, and climbed out again.  The whole time the ADS-B was blaring "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC" since we were so close to the Challenger.

We got downwind again and the tower said "2LK your traffic is a Vision at your 3 o'clock."  I didn't see him and I told him that.  Paige was looking at the ADS-B display and said "there he is, he's like three miles out."  (Which would be at our 12 or 1 o'clock at that point.)  We waited until he was almost abeam and said "Traffic in sight 2LK."  Tower said "2LK follow the Vision, you are #2 after the vision."  (I've been paranoid about this because once a few months back I turned base without the tower telling me to, and got yelled at.)

We turned and got set up on final.  Again on short final the tower said "2LK turn your base, you will be following the Cessna."  Oh shit I thought - did I manage to miss a call AGAIN?  "2LK is on short final," I said.  Paige was looking puzzled as well.

"08Z go around!" the tower called immediately.  Now both of us were getting panicked.  Was 08Z right above us or something?  "Uh - tower - 08Z is on downwind," that plane called in.  "08Z cancel - cancel go around instruction.  Do you have traffic in sight?"  "We do not have traffic in sight, 08Z.  What is our traffic?"

Which meant he was NOT right above us.  I asked Paige "so did you ever actually hear him say we were cleared to land?"  Paige immediately transmitted "is 2LK clear to land?"  "Yes, sorry, 2LK clear to land."

We landed a few seconds later and Paige said "this is nuts, let's just get off the runway."  So we taxiied off while the tower apologized again.

I don't know if this is indicative of what's happening at other airports with all the ATC firings, but it was pretty scary.  The airport is busy enough that mistakes like that could cause serious problems.

That is very freaky in addition to damn scary. We've noticed a decline in controller abilities over the last some years at the DZ. We're out in la-la land and only have an airway and GA traffic bombing around to deal with so we're often doing more listening than talking and obeying. Many years ago I put full on traffic in all of my airplanes just to be proactive to avoid dealing with ATC nonsense: dumb holds, stupid vectors, and just plain forgetting about the restrictions given. I'm of the opinion that back in the early 90's there were much better people in the tower. We're just past 30 miles from PDX (edge of the radar screen) so they could really ignore us if they wanted to. In those day's they never seemed overwhelmed as a part of their normal day like we see now; whatever was going on in the middle of the screen many were still able to be really helpful to us, not controlling and cop like which is more the norm now. The supervisors were more in tune with first come first serve and enforced it instead of begrudging it. These day's not so much. So I'd guess that the problems have as much to do with who they hire, and how they are managed, as who they fire. 

[BIGUN 1,439]

21 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So I'd guess that the problems have as much to do with who they hire, and how they are managed, as who they fire. 

All good points. I sometimes wonder if the recreational pilot certification was a detriment.  

[billvon 3,090]

The Austin airport just announced ground delays (i.e. aircraft are not allowed to taxi) due to ATC staffing shortages, leading to delays between one and 7.5 hours for passengers.  And this is going to get worse; due to the layoffs of government personnel, there are only 32 controllers total at Austin - their normal complement is 60.  And the people who might increase this number - trainers, human resources, and supervisors - were hit even harder by the DOGE layoffs.

[wmw999 2,559]

According to an article I read, no actual controllers were fired. Just everyone else. Because, after all, what does a man need besides himself in a giant organization that involves coordinating with others?

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,869]

29 minutes ago, billvon said:

The Austin airport just announced ground delays (i.e. aircraft are not allowed to taxi) due to ATC staffing shortages, leading to delays between one and 7.5 hours for passengers.  And this is going to get worse; due to the layoffs of government personnel, there are only 32 controllers total at Austin - their normal complement is 60.  And the people who might increase this number - trainers, human resources, and supervisors - were hit even harder by the DOGE layoffs.

So? Austin is as Blue as San Francisco, they brought it on themselves.

[normiss 871]

8 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

According to an article I read, no actual controllers were fired. Just everyone else. Because, after all, what does a man need besides himself in a giant organization that involves coordinating with others?

Wendy P.

Can we actually trust Sean?

Is this the "good" Sean??

[normiss 871]

15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So? Austin is as Blue as San Francisco, they brought it on themselves.

It should be that any city is as American as any other city.

Fuck the division created by republicans.

[wmw999 2,559]

7 minutes ago, normiss said:

It should be that any city is as American as any other city.

Fuck the division created by republicans.

True in the real world. But Elon probably flies in and out of Austin, or at least money-makers he cares about.

Wendy P.

[jakee 1,571]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

According to an article I read, no actual controllers were fired. Just everyone else. Because, after all, what does a man need besides himself in a giant organization that involves coordinating with others?

Wendy P.

Didn’t the blanket layoff of probationary employees across the government mean that all the trainees in the pipeline were fired?

[billvon 3,090]

20 hours ago, jakee said:

Didn’t the blanket layoff of probationary employees across the government mean that all the trainees in the pipeline were fired?

Yep.  

Also consider that Trump's knee-jerk efforts to hire more controllers happen against a backdrop of:

- a system that is heinously overloaded, and that blames controllers for most of the problems with that system
- a system that now excludes "DEI" (i.e. black, female, gay, trans etc) controllers
- a United Airlines CEO blaming his problems on controllers "walking off the job" (for the ATC people taking medical leave)
- Trump's relocation of the Newark controllers from NY to Philly for cost savings (many could not move and were fired)

How many people is he going to get who want to work in that environment?

[JoeWeber 2,869]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  

Also consider that Trump's knee-jerk efforts to hire more controllers happen against a backdrop of:

- a system that is heinously overloaded, and that blames controllers for most of the problems with that system
- a system that now excludes "DEI" (i.e. black, female, gay, trans etc) controllers
- a United Airlines CEO blaming his problems on controllers "walking off the job" (for the ATC people taking medical leave)
- Trump's relocation of the Newark controllers from NY to Philly for cost savings (many could not move and were fired)

How many people is he going to get who want to work in that environment?

richravizza?

[jakee 1,571]

15 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  

Also consider that Trump's knee-jerk efforts to hire more controllers happen against a backdrop of:

- a system that is heinously overloaded, and that blames controllers for most of the problems with that system
- a system that now excludes "DEI" (i.e. black, female, gay, trans etc) controllers
- a United Airlines CEO blaming his problems on controllers "walking off the job" (for the ATC people taking medical leave)
- Trump's relocation of the Newark controllers from NY to Philly for cost savings (many could not move and were fired)

How many people is he going to get who want to work in that environment?

Meanwhile, in a move that by complete coincidence comes alongside a huge Qatar deal that Trump is attempting to claim credit for, Boeing has been let off the hook for intentionally breaching the plea deal that got them off the hook of being prosecuted for killing hundreds of people with engineering they knew was defective.

I'm sure that'll make them learn their lesson and be safer next time.

[JoeWeber 2,869]

5 hours ago, jakee said:

Meanwhile, in a move that by complete coincidence comes alongside a huge Qatar deal that Trump is attempting to claim credit for, Boeing has been let off the hook for intentionally breaching the plea deal that got them off the hook of being prosecuted for killing hundreds of people with engineering they knew was defective.

I'm sure that'll make them learn their lesson and be safer next time.

Some deals are more complicated than others. 

[normiss 871]

On 5/24/2025 at 9:59 AM, JoeWeber said:

Some deals are more expensive than others. 

Under this deal, Boeing will pay or invest more than $1.1 billion, according to the DOJ, including $444.5 million for a crash victims' fund and more than $240 million as an additional criminal fine. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:09 PM by normiss
numbers!

[JoeWeber 2,869]

47 minutes ago, normiss said:

Under this deal, Boeing will pay or invest more than $1.1 billion, according to the DOJ, including $444.5 million for a crash victims' fund and more than $240 million as an additional criminal fine. 

And who can even guess how many under the table spiffs Trump will get for himself or his princeling buddies.