The future of the US

[gowlerk 2,266]

37 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Read it and listen to it and weep. They're just itching to kill a US citizen. 

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-homan-protests/

A little blood letting is just the thing needed to begin the purification process.

[JerryBaumchen 1,454]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

Habeas Corpus ignored,

Judges threatened,

Masked, unidentified government agents grabbing people off the streets,

National Guard called out.

Can Martial Law be far behind?

Hi John,

Here you go:

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,454]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Read it and listen to it and weep. They're just itching to kill a US citizen. 

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-homan-protests/

Hi Joe,

Looks like there is no limit on who they will arrest/detain:  Homan has previously threatened arrest for anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement. When asked whether that would include Newsom or Bass, Homan did not rule it out.

Trump's border czar threatens arrest for immigration interference, warns Newsom and Bass not to 'cross that line'

Looks to me like a showdown is imminent.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[jakee 1,584]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Read it and listen to it and weep. They're just itching to kill a US citizen. 

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-homan-protests/

President Trump has sent the National Guard to help us protect public safety here," Homan insisted. "We got protesters making threats against officers, assaulting officers.

 

How coincidental that MAGA have just now decided that this is bad again.

[BIGUN 1,464]

Different Perspective

Clinton Deportations: 12,000,000+

Bush Deportations: 10,000,000+

Obama Deportations: 5,000,000+ including a three-year period between fiscal 2012 and 2014 when there were more than 400,000 per year.

Trump in this term: 139,000 and border crossings are down 95%

27,000,000 Undocumented in this country over the past 30 years.

Crime from undocumented alone has quadrupled in the past seven years. 

For me; the open door policy (Biden 10,000,000+) has to stop. Open up more ports of entry and come into the country legally, vetting process, sponsor families etc. 

What I disagree with is Trump finding ways around the court system to deport people without a hearing (Due Process). Stop the open doors, open ports, when undocumented are "identified" begin due process and vett them properly. If they been paying taxes, good members of the community. no history of crime in their country of origin. then there needs to be a pathway.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/obama-record-deportations-deporter-chief-or-not

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics

The first two paragraphs of the Raw Story were inaccurate (False).

 

[billvon 3,096]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

President Trump has sent the National Guard to help us protect public safety here," Homan insisted. "We got protesters making threats against officers, assaulting officers.

 

How coincidental that MAGA have just now decided that this is bad again.

Kristi Noem: "If Joe Biden federalizes the National Guard, that would be a direct attack on states' rights. Over the last several years, we've seen Democrats try to take away our Freedoms of religion, assembly, and speech. We can't let them take away our right to defend ourselves, too. South Dakota defends the Constitution."

[JoeWeber 2,901]

33 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Crime from undocumented alone has quadrupled in the past seven years. 

Quadrupled from what? Enough to justify using our armed forces to quell citizen discontent?

[JoeWeber 2,901]

35 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

27,000,000 Undocumented in this country over the past 30 years.

Will you pick my cantaloupes? 

[jakee 1,584]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Different Perspective

Clinton Deportations: 12,000,000+

Bush Deportations: 10,000,000+

Obama Deportations: 5,000,000+ including a three-year period between fiscal 2012 and 2014 when there were more than 400,000 per year.

Trump in this term: 139,000 and border crossings are down 95%

Quick maths check: 400,000 times 8 is 3.2 million. So yeah, Obama must have deported way more than 400,000 per year in that 3 year period if he was deporting fewer than that for the other 5 years. Or, just maybe, your numbers are bullshit.

So yeah - do you think you might want to check whether the reason why some of your numbers sound so crazy is because they are all a work of fiction?

Edited June 8 by jakee

[JoeWeber 2,901]

19 minutes ago, jakee said:

Quick maths check: 400,000 times 8 is 3.2 million. So yeah, Obama must have deported way more than 400,000 per year in that 3 year period if he was deporting fewer than that for the other 5 years. Or, just maybe, your numbers are bullshit.

So yeah - do you think you might want to check whether the reason why some of your numbers sound so crazy is because they are all a work of fiction?

Even if the numbers did make sense they are a distraction from masked ICE agents in battle gear raiding Italian restaurants during dinner hour on the off chance the dishwasher might be undocumented and then calling in the Army because local citizens are pissed about it. It’s all manufactured bullshit to excuse eventual martial law and it’s obvious. The entire mess could hardly be more ridiculous.

[BIGUN 1,464]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Will you pick my cantaloupes?

I'l buy you a Melon Harvester

[BIGUN 1,464]

41 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Even if the numbers did make sense

If you'd read the article I posted. Obama counted the rest in his numbers from those repelled at the border. Those were his numbers, not mine. Martial law cannot be enacted by the President. It has to be done at the state level. 

[gowlerk 2,266]

27 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Martial law cannot be enacted by the President. It has to be done at the state level. 

While it's generally understood that a governor can enact martial law at the state level, it's important to note that the US Constitution doesn't explicitly grant the power to declare martial law to either the President or the governors. However, in practice, the President can invoke martial law on a national level, and governors can invoke it within their state. 

 

Elaboration:

• Federal Power:

  Both the President and Congress have the authority to declare martial law at the national level, as they are in charge of the militia. 

   
• State Power:

  Governors have the authority to declare martial law within their state's borders, a power also granted by nearly every state's constitution. 

   
• No Explicit Constitutional Provision:

  The US Constitution doesn't explicitly grant the power to declare martial law to either the President or the Governors. 

   
• Practical Application:

  In practice, the President and Governors can invoke martial law in their respective jurisdictions, even without a formal proclamation, as a means of dealing with emergencies. 

[BIGUN 1,464]

45 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

However, in practice, the President can invoke martial law on a national level, and governors can invoke it within their state. 

Ken, you do not cite a source, so I don't know where you got this, but it is inaccurate. The Posse Comitatus Act creates a general rule that it is unlawful for federal military forces to engage in civilian law enforcement activities - even if they are merely supplementing rather than supplanting civilian authorities - except when doing so is expressly authorized by Congress. 

~Jennifer K. Elsea, The Posse Comitatus Act and Related Matters: The Use of the Military to Execute Civilian Law, CRS report no. R42659 (Washington, DC: Congressional Research Service, 2018)

The Posse Comitatus Act and Related Matters.pdf

Edited June 8 by BIGUN

[JoeWeber 2,901]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

If you'd read the article I posted. Obama counted the rest in his numbers from those repelled at the border. Those were his numbers, not mine. Martial law cannot be enacted by the President. It has to be done at the state level. 

I meant the quadrupling of committed crimes and was not clear. And if you want to trust that Trump doesn't believe he can declare martial law go for it.

[gowlerk 2,266]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Ken, you do not cite a source, so I don't know where you got this, but it is inaccurate. The Posse Comitatus Act creates a general rule that it is unlawful for federal military forces to engage in civilian law enforcement activities - even if they are merely supplementing rather than supplanting civilian authorities - except when doing so is expressly authorized by Congress. 

Yes, and there is a law that only Congress can make war. Also routinely ignored.

 

Martial law in the United States refers to times in United States history in which a region, state, city, or the whole United States was placed under the control of a military body. On a national level, both the US President and the US Congress have the power, within certain constraints, to impose martial law since both can be in charge of the militia. In nearly every state, the governor has the power to impose martial law within the borders of the state.^[1] In the United States, martial law has been used in a limited number of circumstances, such as New Orleans during the Battle of New Orleans; after major disasters, such as the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, or during riots, such as the Omaha race riot of 1919 or the 1920 Lexington riots; local leaders declared martial law to protect themselves from mob violence, such as Nauvoo, Illinois, during the Illinois Mormon War, or Utah during the Utah War; or in response to chaos associated with protests and rioting, such as the 1934 West Coast waterfront strike, in Hawaii after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, and during the Civil Rights Movement in response to the Cambridge riot of 1963.

Much more here....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_the_United_States

 

Specifically this....

2025 Executive Order

[edit]

On April 28, 2025, President Donald Trump published an executive order titled Strengthening and Unleashing America’s Law Enforcement to Pursue Criminals and Protect Innocent Citizens. Section 4 of the order "Using National Security Assets for Law and Order" mandates that the Secretary of Defense determine routes to use military in law enforcement capacities.^[33]

Edited June 9 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,901]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

If you'd read the article I posted. Obama counted the rest in his numbers from those repelled at the border. Those were his numbers, not mine. Martial law cannot be enacted by the President. It has to be done at the state level. 

“I am directing Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, and Attorney General Pam Bondi, in coordination with all other relevant Departments and Agencies, to take all such action necessary to liberate Los Angeles from the Migrant Invasion, and put an end to these Migrant riots,” Trump wrote. 

“Order will be restored, the Illegals will be expelled, and Los Angeles will be set free.”

--President Donald J. Trump

Any other legal interpretations regarding martial law you'd care to provide?

[jakee 1,584]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

If you'd read the article I posted. Obama counted the rest in his numbers from those repelled at the border. Those were his numbers, not mine. 

Ok, I’ve read the article, and you’ve fucked up by using numbers from two different columns (therefore two completely different things) for the yearly totals and the full term totals under Obama. 
 

So honestly, if you can’t even compare apples to apples when looking at numbers in the same table, I have zero confidence that you’ve done so when looking at numbers from two different sources.

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Martial law cannot be enacted by the President. It has to be done at the state level. 

Says who?

[jakee 1,584]

7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Ken, you do not cite a source, so I don't know where you got this, but it is inaccurate. The Posse Comitatus Act creates a general rule that it is unlawful for federal military forces to engage in civilian law enforcement activities - even if they are merely supplementing rather than supplanting civilian authorities - except when doing so is expressly authorized by Congress. 

Good lord you’ve burrowed yourself down a rabbit hole on this one.

First, you did not cite a source either. Second, did the use of the words ‘general rule’ not give you pause? Third, even if this paragraph was the be all and end all of the legal situation, is it your contention now that Congress is the state level government of the USA?

 

So here’s the thing - the Posse Comitatus act does forbid the President alone from deploying troops to uphold the law…. except when he declares martial law! It’s not the only exception to the general rule (i.e. Eisenhower sent troops to Little Rock under the Enforcement acts), but it’s kinda the biggy in this discussion. Here you go, the Insurrection act. It’s not like Trump has ever mentioned it or anything…

The Insurrection Act of 1807 is the U.S. federal law that empowers the president of the United States to nationally deploy the U.S. military and to federalize the National Guard units of the individual states in specific circumstances, such as the suppression of civil disorder, of insurrection, and of armed rebellion against the federal government of the U.S.[1] The Insurrection Act provides a statutory exception to the Posse Comitatus Act (1878) that limits the president's deploying the U.S. military to enforce either civil law or criminal law within the United States.[2][3]

[jakee 1,584]

7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Ken, you do not cite a source, so I don't know where you got this, but it is inaccurate. 

~Jennifer K. Elsea, The Posse Comitatus Act and Related Matters: The Use of the Military to Execute Civilian Law, CRS report no. R42659 (Washington, DC: Congressional Research Service, 2018)

The Posse Comitatus Act and Related Matters.pdf 1.44 MB · 1 download

This was in the second paragraph of Ms Elsea’s report. 

The express statutory exceptions include the legislation that allows the President to use military force to suppress insurrection or to enforce federal authority, 

So it’s pretty clear where you got your idea from, you just invented it - and it is inaccurate as it gets.

Edited June 9 by jakee

[BIGUN 1,464]

47 minutes ago, jakee said:

This was in the second paragraph of Ms Elsea’s report. 

The express statutory exceptions include the legislation that allows the President to use military force to suppress insurrection or to enforce federal authority, 

 "Exceptions" 10 U.S.C. §§ 271-284.

[BIGUN 1,464]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Any other legal interpretations regarding martial law you'd care to provide?

That's still not martial law, Joe. 

https://fortune.com/2025/06/08/national-guard-troops-los-angeles-trump-ice-insurrection-act-posse-comitatus/

Edited June 9 by BIGUN

[jakee 1,584]

34 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

 "Exceptions" 10 U.S.C. §§ 271-284.

Use your words. The words "oh shit I was completely wrong" would be most appropriate, but if you still think you have a leg to stand on then you need to explain what it is.

Fair warning though - before you do that you should read § 278, and really try to understand it.

30 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

That's still not martial law, Joe. 

That is rich given that your entire argument so far rests on the Posse Comitatus act - when your own source explicitly tells you it explicitly does not apply in times of martial law.

Edited June 9 by jakee

[BIGUN 1,464]

40 minutes ago, jakee said:

Use your words. The words "oh shit I was completely wrong" would be most appropriate, but if you still think you have a leg to stand on then you need to explain what it is.

Fair warning though - before you do that you should read § 278, and really try to understand it.

Love your debate tactic. You don't know enough about Martial law, Posse Comitatus, or how they all interlace with the 14th amendment, but wrap it all up in a gaslighting technique. 

[jakee 1,584]

1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

Love your debate tactic. You don't know enough about Martial law, Posse Comitatus, or how they all interlace with the 14th amendment, but wrap it all up in a gaslighting technique. 

You mean the tactic of reading the documents you have supplied but couldn't be bothered to look at, and explaining why they actually say the opposite of what you claim they do? I can see why that would be frustrating for you if you only want to win an argument rather than find out whether or not you are actually right.

Actually in this case, since I already told you to read section 278 (Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to limit the authority of the executive branch in the use of military personnel or equipment for civilian law enforcement purposes beyond that provided by law before December 1, 1981) then it's surely not that you couldn't be bothered to read that one sentence, it's that you are attempting to actively mislead and gaslight everyone here about the law.

 

Why do you do it? Plenty of people here are under the impression that you're a reasonable person - why are you so hell bent on proving them wrong?