The future of the US

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

The government always has a GSA list of non-performing assets such as this courthouse and the decision for it to be on the list was probably made long before Trump. 

Probably. Have you noticed your tendency to often find a normalized explanation for what is across the board a very abnormal situation?

"Over the past 100 years....., Yes, he was voted in by a majority, and yes; you kind of reap what you sow......I hope those other countries will remember us for our strengths and forgive us for our weaknesses....., This too will pass and our system is still one of the best." 

You don't only "kind of" reap what you sow, you actually do reap it and he was voted in by a majority for one single reason: too many voters didn't vote for Harris. Furthermore, our system is rather obviously not one of the best, as if that is an important metric and having Fox News idiots as cabinet secretaries isn't appalling on every possible level. But hey, we can always hope "...those other countries will remember us for our strengths and forgive us for our weaknesses." 

Thanks, but no thanks.

[billvon 3,076]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

It's nice to have a positive attitude and stay hopeful but what many are starting to realize is less than any help. You state this: "There is still a rule of law and the judicial system needs to realize their job is to protect the Constitution." but the sad truth is that our problem now is owing to the fact that the rule of law in America is highly politicized all the way up to the Supreme Court where John Roberts and his fellow conservatives decided Trump could be trusted with absolute immunity.

Plus which there is no longer any reason for Trump to even listen to any courts.  Why would he?  He will be granted immunity for anything he does, and can arrest and deport anyone who tries to stop him.  At most we will get an apology - "Yeah, we shouldn't have deported that liberal judge, but nothing we can do about that now.  And it was another prisoner that killed him.  So it's not our fault."

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Probably. Have you noticed your tendency to often find a normalized explanation for what is across the board a very abnormal situation?

"Over the past 100 years....., Yes, he was voted in by a majority, and yes; you kind of reap what you sow......I hope those other countries will remember us for our strengths and forgive us for our weaknesses....., This too will pass and our system is still one of the best." 

You don't only "kind of" reap what you sow, you actually do reap it and he was voted in by a majority for one single reason: too many voters didn't vote for Harris. Furthermore, our system is rather obviously not one of the best, as if that is an important metric and having Fox News idiots as cabinet secretaries isn't appalling on every possible level. But hey, we can always hope "...those other countries will remember us for our strengths and forgive us for our weaknesses." 

Thanks, but no thanks.

Hi Joe,

Re:  he was voted in by a majority for one single reason: too many voters didn't vote for Harris.

This, a thousand times this.

When we were once again faced with Trump; and, by Nov '24, we knew what he was; why in hell would anyone vote for anyone other than Harris?

The old argument that she was not a good choice does not hold water for me.

Anyone here think that their spouse is perfect?  I thought not.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited April 19 by JerryBaumchen

[nigel99 569]

7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Morning, Nigel.

I've had a chance to ponder and think about this overnight. Over the past 100 years; there's been a lot of countries that have been at their worst and the US was there to help. I hope they remember what we; the American people did to help them and realize the American people are still good folks. 

Yes, he was voted in by a majority, and yes; you kind of reap what you sow . . . but, many are now starting to realize the political promises are/were not what they were promised. Trump is a con man. Always has been and always will be. 

I hope those other countries will remember us for our strengths and forgive us for our weaknesses. This too will pass and our system is still one of the best. Just today a judge ruled against shipping out Venezuelans. There is still a rule of law and the judicial system needs to realize their job is to protect the Constitution.  

Always enjoy how you think things through and reflect. I’m sure you’re right and that the world will accept the US back, although in a different and more humble position. It’s going to have to change language though and lose phrases like “leaders of the free world” and dare I say it “our system is the best” (that’s not what you said). 

Ultimately I’ve got faith in the American people that you won’t allow yourselves to become the next Iran as much as Mike Johnson and the like are going to try. 

You guys are fighting a war on multiple fronts right now and I’ve got no idea where you start and which is the most important. There is the white power movement gaining hold (which appears to be a global phenomenon), the Theocracy movement to install extreme religious government and destroy women’s rights, the oligarchs aiming for complete domination are all internally facing issues. 

Then there is the very real problem (for Americans, not the rest of us) and reality that the US is losing its empire and grip over world events. That has to be a painful transition and one that is difficult to navigate peacefully. Inherently we gravitate towards a win-lose mindset and win-win doesn’t come naturally. I think this drives a lot of the isolationist rhetoric, and I originally supported Brexit for the same reasons many Americans want to put “America first”. 

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Plus which there is no longer any reason for Trump to even listen to any courts.  Why would he?  He will be granted immunity for anything he does, and can arrest and deport anyone who tries to stop him.  At most we will get an apology - "Yeah, we shouldn't have deported that liberal judge, but nothing we can do about that now.  And it was another prisoner that killed him.  So it's not our fault."

One question I have is could SCOTUS, in a lucid moment, include in a present decision language that confines Trumps immunity? If so, Barrett and Roberts together have the power to make some amends and just might it sometimes seems.

[nigel99 569]

I was thinking about you guys in the US and what realistically can be done in the current situation.

The protests are getting some attention in the media, but not much. 

Does the US system allow for direct action at a local representative level? So if your local congressman or senator isn’t speaking out can they be picketed at home and office? Peacefully and legally? Or take them on in the legal system and sue them for failing in their duties? 

I still hold the view that the 2nd amendment is a waste of time and unrealistic for the argument against a tyrannical government . I’m not even sure that you’d get away with an armed group picketing a politician. 

[BIGUN 1,423]

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Have you noticed your tendency to often find a normalized explanation for what is across the board a very abnormal situation?

Sorry to disappoint. 

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

he was voted in by a majority for one single reason: too many voters didn't vote for Harris.

I know, right. 13.2 Million Democrats did not show up for their party. Why is that? Wouldn't that have been the difference between winning and losing?

Edited April 20 by BIGUN

[jakee 1,564]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I know, right. 13.2 Million Democrats did not show up for their party. Why is that? Wouldn't that have been the difference between winning and losing?

Considering you are one of the people who was suckered by the Republican  rhetoric about Harris that’s a question for you to answer.

[gowlerk 2,251]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

Considering you are one of the people who was suckered by the Republican  rhetoric about Harris that’s a question for you to answer.

Kerry was no good because of inadequacy as a swift boat commander. Hilary was no good because she is a harridan. Kamala has a funny name and a weird laugh. The machine has no problem identifying the D deficiencies and exploiting them to the point that a dotard is certainly a better choice.

[BIGUN 1,423]

30 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

exploiting them to the point that a dotard is certainly a better choice.

Have you been able to figure out which crimes get you elected and which get you deported? :)

[JoeWeber 2,836]

9 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Sorry to disappoint. 

I know, right. 13.2 Million Democrats did not show up for their party. Why is that? Wouldn't that have been the difference between winning and losing?

Apology accepted and apparently you don't know, right. The idea is that you show up not to vote for your party but to vote for your country. That you did not do; what you did do was put your head in the sand. This I take exception to: "This too will pass and our system is still one of the best." In other words, it's all no biggie, take a chill pill, and just ride this out waiting for better times. Yesterday Lisa Murkowski basically told her constituents things were weird and she was scared. Well fuck that noise. Why not announce you are caucusing with the D's and get loud with your colleagues in both houses to do the same recognizing that is probably our only short term hope if not a good plan for reelection? You know, be brave and set an example for others to follow. You could do the same: start by admitting that voting third party and not Harris was a partial vote for Trump, change your voter registration, call every last one of your R representatives and tell them you are pissed and they should be, too. And go big telling all of your Special Forces buddies that current conservative values are not what you served to protect and encourage them to take the same new, liberal activist path. Why? Well because right now there is no reason to think this will simply pass and we'll soon, or even someday, be back to sanity and fair treatment for every person living in America and the respect and admiration of the world. Nor is there any reason to believe Trump will suddenly stop tanking what was a great economy and the envy of the world or quit hiring sycophantic nincompoops like Pete Hegseth to run departments of state. That alone, I would have thought, might have inspired you to say enough's enough.

[BIGUN 1,423]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

encourage them to take the same new, liberal activist path.

You weren't paying attention. You can't even get your own party to take the same new liberal activist path. My path is to go Independent and vote for whom I think is the best person.

[JoeWeber 2,836]

3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You weren't paying attention. You can't even get your own party to take the same new liberal activist path. My path is to go Independent and vote for whom I think is the best person.

So what is your point? I am the problem because I didn't inspire 13.2 million non-voters to vote D? So enlighten me, who was this best person you voted for or is it either a super duper secret or just too embarrassing to state in public?

[BIGUN 1,423]

16 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So enlighten me, who was this best person you voted for or is it either a super duper secret or just too embarrassing to state in public?

 

[JoeWeber 2,836]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

 

That's nice. The reality is that your essential conservative bent made a vote for Harris simply impossible in an election when a vote for Chase was not a vote against Trump and a vote against Trump, when we knew exactly what he was, should have been the minimum. So you were willing to accept Trump to avoid voting for Harris. You can try pretzel twisting this but you got what you didn't vote for and that's the bottom line. 

Edited April 20 by JoeWeber

[nigel99 569]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

That's nice. The reality is that your essential conservative bent made a vote for Harris simply impossible in an election when a vote for Chase was not a vote against Trump and a vote against Trump, when we knew exactly what he was, should have been the minimum. So you were willing to accept Trump to avoid voting for Harris. You can try pretzel twisting this but you got what you didn't vote for and that's the bottom line. 

At what point is it time to drop the bone on this? One of Biguns points is the polarisation of US politics. I think it’s clear you disagree with his choice, skydivers have a twisted sense of humour and there’s a chance this is friendly ribbing between the two of you.

There are going to be people who actually voted for Trump who regret their decision and crucifying them and rubbing their noses in it, isn’t going to encourage them to “swap sides”

From the outside it looks like the Dems lack strategy and are incapable of mobilising against the Trump regime. As Jasmin Crocket pointed out, insider trading is rife within Congress and that’s both sides. Breaking the system is going to require a new approach and building a new base from somewhere that represents the average American. 

 

[JoeWeber 2,836]

43 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

At what point is it time to drop the bone on this? One of Biguns points is the polarisation of US politics. I think it’s clear you disagree with his choice, skydivers have a twisted sense of humour and there’s a chance this is friendly ribbing between the two of you.

There are going to be people who actually voted for Trump who regret their decision and crucifying them and rubbing their noses in it, isn’t going to encourage them to “swap sides”

From the outside it looks like the Dems lack strategy and are incapable of mobilising against the Trump regime. As Jasmin Crocket pointed out, insider trading is rife within Congress and that’s both sides. Breaking the system is going to require a new approach and building a new base from somewhere that represents the average American. 

 

You can drop any bones you like including all of mine but I will still consider this a point worth making. Kieth’s vote is only a part of what I see as a problem, the remainder revolves around the idea that we are just suffering a passing condition and not experiencing a national disaster. I, and people like me, voted to not have what we feel any casual observer could see coming. Now we are exercised against it and want others to see the truth. So as long as anyone wants to tell me that a non vote in the last election was as good as a vote against Trump I will argue the obvious and as long as they want to tell me that the pendulum will swing back and all will be fine again I will patiently point out what they cannot see.

[nigel99 569]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You can drop any bones you like including all of mine but I will still consider this a point worth making. Kieth’s vote is only a part of what I see as a problem, the remainder revolves around the idea that we are just suffering a passing condition and not experiencing a national disaster. I, and people like me, voted to not have what we feel any casual observer could see coming. Now we are exercised against it and want others to see the truth. So as long as anyone wants to tell me that a non vote in the last election was as good as a vote against Trump I will argue the obvious and as long as they want to tell me that the pendulum will swing back and all will be fine again I will patiently point out what they cannot see.

I agree about the pendulum swinging back. I think this time it swung so far the rope broke. 

Edited April 21 by nigel99

[BIGUN 1,423]

4 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Breaking the system is going to require a new approach and building a new base from somewhere that represents the average American. 

Truth. The political Venn diagram only has two circles and the intersection has pulled completely apart.

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You can try pretzel twisting this but you got what you didn't vote for and that's the bottom line. 

Jeo, And you got what you didn't vote for and it's all my fault. You don't want to assess the situation, you and the other "liberals" on here don't ask, "What could we have done different, how can we do better in 4 years, and develop a plan for success."  

Do you even wonder why 13.2 million on your own side failed to show up? Had they, we wouldn' be having this discussion.

You lost, you're pissed, I get it, but, stop trying to lay the blame at my feet.   

[jakee 1,564]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Do you even wonder why 13.2 million on your own side failed to show up?

Where does that number come from?

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Had they, we wouldn' be having this discussion.

You lost, you're pissed, I get it, but, stop trying to lay the blame at my feet.   

Had a million or two people like you shown up we wouldn't be having the discussion. 

You had a binary choice between an agent of chaos with a declared intention to destroy the constitutional system of checks and balances and a normal politician who happens to be a Democrat, and you were unable to choose the normal person. 

Given your comment above you do appear to be happy with the idea that people who failed to vote against Trump are culpable, so it's baffling that you refuse to consider yourself one of them.

[JoeWeber 2,836]

6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Truth. The political Venn diagram only has two circles and the intersection has pulled completely apart.

Jeo, And you got what you didn't vote for and it's all my fault. You don't want to assess the situation, you and the other "liberals" on here don't ask, "What could we have done different, how can we do better in 4 years, and develop a plan for success."  

Do you even wonder why 13.2 million on your own side failed to show up? Had they, we wouldn' be having this discussion.

You lost, you're pissed, I get it, but, stop trying to lay the blame at my feet.   

I didn’t lose, my country which includes you lost and yes I’m pissed. And no “the blame” isn’t being laid at your feet, just your fair share. That you cannot see that your vote in this election hurt and didn’t help I don’t believe. Hence my tendency to believe that your conservative bent made voting for a Black, female, liberal, with a ready giggle impossible regardless of the alternative. You alone would not have been a problem it’s that there were millions of like thinkers that have us met here today.

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

I didn’t lose, my country which includes you lost and yes I’m pissed. And no “the blame” isn’t being laid at your feet, just your fair share. That you cannot see that your vote in this election hurt and didn’t help I don’t believe. Hence my tendency to believe that your conservative bent made voting for a Black, female, liberal, with a ready giggle impossible regardless of the alternative. You alone would not have been a problem it’s that there were millions of like thinkers that have us met here today.

Hi Joe,

Last week I received an email from David Hogg.  He probably got my info because of my political donations last year.  Then yesterday, I saw him on ABC's This Week.

I found him way too talkative.  But, then I began looking into him.

I have to agree with him that the Dems have to get rid of those way too old folks that are holding us back; think Biden at his debate last year.

While I do not agree with everything he stands for, I damn sure agree that the Dems [ and this country ] need some new blood.

Party vice-chair David Hogg wants to unseat some fellow Democrats by funding primary challengers | Here & Now

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

Last week I received an email from David Hogg.  He probably got my info because of my political donations last year.  Then yesterday, I saw him on ABC's This Week.

I found him way too talkative.  But, then I began looking into him.

I have to agree with him that the Dems have to get rid of those way too old folks that are holding us back; think Biden at his debate last year.

While I do not agree with everything he stands for, I damn sure agree that the Dems [ and this country ] need some new blood.

Party vice-chair David Hogg wants to unseat some fellow Democrats by funding primary challengers | Here & Now

Jerry Baumchen

He's certainly correct. Our senior leaders are no less moribund and selfishly power mad than the Republican types. Biden was a selfish ass as were Ginsburg and others. Go further and include Harris. Surely she knew it was a steep uphill battle and the downsides must have been more obvious to her than the average voter. Any white male would have performed better and the most strident believers in candidate equality should have been willing to hold their noses and step that far back in time to beat Trump. It's not as if we didn't gleefully accept the performance art of choosing a mid-west white guy for the bottom of the ticket thus underlining our essential hypocrisy---again.

We are weak, in context, because we are always willing to see the good elsewhere whereas the Republicans are always willing to see liberals as their enemies even when their facts don't line up. We are all too ready to see the error of our ways for no other reason than to impress ourselves with our rationality whereas our counterparts are ever able to escape the penalties of such maladies. 

[wmw999 2,545]

51 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Any white male would have performed better and the most strident believers in candidate equality should have been willing to hold their noses and step that far back in time to beat Trump.

This (dagnabbit). That yellow dog is looking better all the time. Much better than an orange dog.

51 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

We are weak, in context, because we are always willing to see the good elsewhere whereas the Republicans are always willing to see liberals as their enemies even when their facts don't line up.

And this. I'm particularly guilty of looking for the good. Individually, it enhances my life far more than it reduces it, so I'll keep it up. But yeah, my glasses are even pink 

Wendy P.

[johnhking1 100]

On 4/21/2025 at 1:56 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

I have to agree with him that the Dems have to get rid of those way too old folks that are holding us back; think Biden at his debate last year.

Also Schumer, Pelosi, Maxine Waters, that old cane waiving guy and others.