Aren't You Glad You Voted For Trump

[nigel99 629]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I read that. Speaking strictly to the question at hand and not the stupid bill, stupid Trump, or any other stupid thing, I certainly think that able bodied people should be contributing to society in exchange for what they are given be it health care, food stamps, or a dormitory bed.

It’s a fine balance, but I think there are aspects where we have it wrong. I believe it’s a basic human right to have food and shelter. 

I would prefer to support a welfare system that provides a financial safety net for people who lose their job for a period of time, perhaps 12 months. But I would like to see long term welfare people housed in dormitories, given free public transport and with an onsite cafeteria that provides healthy food for free. 

I really struggle with the concept that “welfare” is providing people with free car registration, all speeding fines paid by the state, and a relatively high welfare check. The system (here at least) is skewed and it’s actually better to not work than to have a menial labour job as you earn less. Our menial labour is being done by visa holders who can’t access public services, or the few that have the desire to work. 

It’s not all that abstract for me. I work a good job and am on a decent salary that places me in the top 5-10%. But after bills, mortgage and insurance etc I have less disposable income than my 25 year old son and his girlfriend where the subsidies all add up along with their welfare checks. 

[JoeWeber 2,953]

1 hour ago, nigel99 said:

I believe it’s a basic human right to have food and shelter. 

That is to say it is a basic human right to be provided for. That is a vastly different proposition than the idea that we actually help ourselves by helping those unable to help themselves. No matter, no sooner were the words typed than you took the idea to task in the three paragraphs that followed. 

This idea of basic rights that are the responsibilities of others is wrongheaded. We help others to benefit the collective and ourselves either economically or emotionally. But no way, no how, should we simply toss in the towel and agree that helping the selfish and the lazy is the cost of doing societal business any more than we should allow other types of thieves roam without penalty.

[Phil1111 1,186]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

That is to say it is a basic human right to be provided for. That is a vastly different proposition than the idea that we actually help ourselves by helping those unable to help themselves. No matter, no sooner were the words typed than you took the idea to task in the three paragraphs that followed. 

This idea of basic rights that are the responsibilities of others is wrongheaded. We help others to benefit the collective and ourselves either economically or emotionally. But no way, no how, should we simply toss in the towel and agree that helping the selfish and the lazy is the cost of doing societal business any more than we should allow other types of thieves roam without penalty.

I agree but everyone has to be conscious of how this narrative is weaponized. Republican Mike Flood suggested that medicaid recipients were receiving benefits and refused to work. Akin to saying that "illegal" immigrants are flooding across the border to start receiving rich US welfare benefits. Then refusing to get jobs because the objective isn't to grasp the American dream. But instead to get fat on the juicy benefits that "dems" hand out. That only republicans will stop such excess.

[nigel99 629]

45 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

That is to say it is a basic human right to be provided for. That is a vastly different proposition than the idea that we actually help ourselves by helping those unable to help themselves. No matter, no sooner were the words typed than you took the idea to task in the three paragraphs that followed. 

This idea of basic rights that are the responsibilities of others is wrongheaded. We help others to benefit the collective and ourselves either economically or emotionally. But no way, no how, should we simply toss in the towel and agree that helping the selfish and the lazy is the cost of doing societal business any more than we should allow other types of thieves roam without penalty.

I don’t understand? Maybe I’m just slow today.

I don’t think anyone should be left to starve or live on the streets. But if you “refuse” to work you don’t deserve to be handed life’s luxuries. Sorry but to me an apartment or house of your own is a western luxury and many do with far less. Likewise money for McDonalds and cigarettes is a luxury, but a soup kitchen/cafeteria providing free food for those in need isn’t. 

[JoeWeber 2,953]

31 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

I don’t understand? Maybe I’m just slow today.

I don’t think anyone should be left to starve or live on the streets. But if you “refuse” to work you don’t deserve to be handed life’s luxuries. Sorry but to me an apartment or house of your own is a western luxury and many do with far less. Likewise money for McDonalds and cigarettes is a luxury, but a soup kitchen/cafeteria providing free food for those in need isn’t. 

Soup kitchens, cots in a dorm, bathroom facilities, a public health clinic, psych services and a way to earn money to get out seems about right. Anything more, let the churches pay for it with what they don't pay in property taxes. 

[jakee 1,599]

4 hours ago, nigel99 said:

But after bills, mortgage and insurance etc I have less disposable income than my 25 year old son and his girlfriend where the subsidies all add up along with their welfare checks. 

The ‘disposable income’ argument is almost always specious. You don’t make the money to have the money, you make the money to get the stuff. Making more money, getting more stuff, then wondering why you don’t still have more money doesn’t really make sense.

Presumably, you are making mortgage payments on a much more expensive house that is a major long term asset for you. Presumably they are paying rent on a smaller, cheaper, objectively worse place to live that is a long term asset for a landlord. If you wanted to, you could sell your house, rent the cheapest apartment you could find and have loads more disposable income than them… but you probably really don’t want to do that. 
 

This is before getting into all the other things that are often not counted as disposable income in peoples minds, eg are you supporting a family that they’re not? Are you making payments on expensive cars they don’t have? Are you making payments on other expensive retail finance items eg furniture and appliances that they’re not? All the things that come with upscaling your life to fit your income instead of living a benefits style life with lots of income. Because why would you?

[Phil1111 1,186]

12 hours ago, nigel99 said:

.... I work a good job and am on a decent salary that places me in the top 5-10%. But after bills, mortgage and insurance etc I have less disposable income than my 25 year old son and his girlfriend where the subsidies all add up along with their welfare checks. 

Every parent dreams that their children will be better off than themselves.You must be very proud!

The top 5-10% of income earners who are homeowners are living the best life possible. You have the tremendous advantage of the leverage that home ownership provides. Long term asset appreciation in a asset class thats tax free. In accommodation for which you can make changes as you please. 

Life-...enjoy.

[wmw999 2,593]

3 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Every parent dreams that their children will be better off than themselves.You must be very proud!

In the US at least, with the generally good economy of the 50’s and the 80’s, and the huge baby boom consort that did very well indeed (as long as they were the right color and social class), that’s not really likely. And our kids know it. They started at where so many of our ancestors aspired to have their children end up. It’s not that the American dream is dead, it’s just that it’s based on continued growth, like our economy, and we haven’t accounted for the fact that everlasting growth in humans at least generally ends up as cancer, killing the host.

Wendy P. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,470]

14 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Soup kitchens, cots in a dorm, bathroom facilities, a public health clinic, psych services and a way to earn money to get out seems about right. Anything more, let the churches pay for it with what they don't pay in property taxes. 

Hi Joe,

I'm with you.  However, I would also add that they would have to obey any rules 100%, no exceptions; maybe with one pass on any rules violation.

Jerry Baumchen

[kallend 2,158]

14 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

I'm with you.  However, I would also add that they would have to obey any rules 100%, no exceptions; maybe with one pass on any rules violation.

Jerry Baumchen

So caught jaywalking twice and it's off to El Salvador?

[JoeWeber 2,953]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

So caught jaywalking twice and it's off to El Salvador?

Not at all. Jaywalking shows initiative and a desire to get ahead. Two of those and we put their tent and dog in your yard as a reward.

[normiss 900]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Not at all. Jaywalking shows initiative and a desire to get ahead. Two of those and we put their tent and dog in your yard as a reward.

They're eating the dogs.

[kallend 2,158]

8 hours ago, kallend said:

So caught jaywalking twice and it's off to El Salvador?

 

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Not at all. Jaywalking shows initiative and a desire to get ahead. 

So does fraud, just ask Donnie.

[billvon 3,121]

8 hours ago, kallend said:

So caught jaywalking twice and it's off to El Salvador?

Well, depends on their skin color of course.

[JoeWeber 2,953]

44 minutes ago, billvon said:

Well, depends on their skin color of course.

Around these parts if you live in a tent with your dog alongside the highway you are likely white. The browner folks tend to have jobs somewhere.

[JerryBaumchen 1,470]

11 hours ago, kallend said:

So caught jaywalking twice and it's off to El Salvador?

Hi John,

Not at all; they are merely tossed out of the dorms.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,470]

Hi to all the veterans who did not vote for Harris,

Aren't you glad that you didn't:  The U.S. Air Force said Thursday it would deny all transgender service members who have served between 15 and 18 years the option to retire early and would instead separate them without retirement benefits.

Trump's Air Force denies retirement pay to ex-trans service members | AP News

Talk about being stabbed in the back.

Jerry Baumchen

[nigel99 629]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Around these parts if you live in a tent with your dog alongside the highway you are likely white. The browner folks tend to have jobs somewhere.

I got to Fitz a day or two before the boogie last year and there was a family living in a tent at the airport. They up and left leaving their dog tied up / just abandoned it.

Dog didn’t get eaten. It had a happy ending as a skydiver either adopted it or got it re homed as the local dog pound puts dogs down if they aren’t taken. 

It was a pretty sad situation and I feel reflected the stuff some Americans are facing, but also the number of good people that are willing to make a difference.

[JerryBaumchen 1,470]

Hi folks,

WOW - it looks like even the red states are having Buyer's Remorse:  a group called Mad Voters held events with speakers nearby where Vance's visit was jeered loudly.

JD Vance loudly booed in ruby red state: video

IMO when the people in Indiana are not happy with being MAGA-people, something is Wrong in River City.

We do live in interesting times.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Hmm, wonder what he wants them to buy:  Today, President Donald J. Trump signed an Executive Order to allow 401(k) investors to access alternative assets for better returns and diversification.

Fact Sheet: President Donald J. Trump Democratizes Access to Alternative Assets for 401(k) Investors – The White House

Once a con man, always a con man.

 

[jakee 1,599]

13 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi to all the veterans who did not vote for Harris,

Aren't you glad that you didn't:  The U.S. Air Force said Thursday it would deny all transgender service members who have served between 15 and 18 years the option to retire early and would instead separate them without retirement benefits.

Trump's Air Force denies retirement pay to ex-trans service members | AP News

Talk about being stabbed in the back.

Jerry Baumchen

If only there could have been some prior indication that Trump thinks servicemen/women are suckers and losers. As it is they can’t possibly be held responsible for this thing that just came outta absolutely nowhere. 
 

I wonder how much more the inevitable lawsuit is going to cost than just doing right by people in the first place.

Edited Friday at 09:45 AM by jakee

[kallend 2,158]

19 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

Not at all; they are merely tossed out of the dorms.

Jerry Baumchen

 

On 8/7/2025 at 2:28 AM, kallend said:

So caught jaywalking twice and it's off to El Salvador?

And then homeless people are rounded up and put in concentration camps.  Got it.

[GeorgiaDon 381]

20 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi to all the veterans who did not vote for Harris,

Aren't you glad that you didn't:  The U.S. Air Force said Thursday it would deny all transgender service members who have served between 15 and 18 years the option to retire early and would instead separate them without retirement benefits.

Trump's Air Force denies retirement pay to ex-trans service members | AP News

Talk about being stabbed in the back.

Jerry Baumchen

Clearly gratuitous cruelty is the point.  Why is MAGA so consumed with hatred?  I don't want to even think about how low these monsters will go.

[kallend 2,158]

15 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Clearly gratuitous cruelty is the point.  Why is MAGA so consumed with hatred?  I don't want to even think about how low these monsters will go.

Evangelicals,  the Inquisition updated to the 21st Century.

[JoeWeber 2,953]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

 

And then homeless people are rounded up and put in concentration camps.  Got it.

No, you don't got it. It's glib to accuse us of wanting concentration camps next. However, instead the proposed sanitary living conditions that afford opportunities to escape the endless cycle how's about the rest of us, you first, get assigned one or two homeless or psychologically damaged folks to support and help every 5 years or so? No? Of course not, you just want your conscious salved by having a certain level of concern applied from a distance and at a reasonable cost; and to stay engaged you believe the conversation then must be limited to the level of concern and the cost. I have many European friends who are super frustrated at the tax price they pay after following a political philosophy of write checks and don't ask questions for so long. Gifting sufficient free money to live comfortably and freedom, no strings attached, is not the solution. 

[wmw999 2,593]

I used to work for the food stamp office; yeah, there’s a willingness problem sometimes, and sometimes there’s a support problem. Parents who felt as though welfare was the best option because they had a kid or two with asthma and couldn’t afford medical bills. Lack of daycare (and this was the 70’s when standards and insurance were lower). And it’s hard to be a single parent of children and work a full time job. Cooking healthy food has to take a back seat sometimes. Welfare in Texas at the time did not pay enough to live on, so this was a serious consideration  

I used to posit a system where in exchange for some extra food stamps, qualified (remember, at the time that only meant having a heartbeat) people could provide childcare for the people working. Etc. barter. Now so many people are willing to sue for anything, dunno if it’d work  

Wendy P.