And just like that…

[jakee 1,569]

  On 11/13/2024 at 4:05 AM, metalslug said:

In some ways the SC forum is a reflection of the larger liberal position; "I have blocked person X!" .

Winsor isn't a liberal.

  On 11/13/2024 at 4:05 AM, metalslug said:

they isolate in echo chambers and are then surprised by election results or surprised to learn that Biden was impaired. Even the D's own polling methods were closed off.

So were most of the Republicans. Trump didn't think he was going to win, that's why he was complaining about rampant election fraud on polling day. And again, is there anything more echo chambery than pretending the people who voted against you simpy don't exist?

  On 11/13/2024 at 4:05 AM, metalslug said:

With recent events I suspect conservatives might expect to notice more humility here now or at least a greater willingness from liberals to 'read the room' of political climate.

Ludicrous double standard. Again, the only conservatives posting here before November 5th were quite adamant that this was going to be a single issue election, with people voting for the economy and ignoring everything else. Now you're all saying it's a definitive referendum on every aspect of liberal policy. Further, this is the third time in 36 years that the Reps have won the popular vote and does anyone remember seeing a shred of humility or softening of their positions in that time? No, they just got better at lying to the people and abusing the levers of power to get what they want anyway.

For instance, you made up something Putin said about Trump, I showed you the text of the speech to prove it wasn't true, you just decided to stand by what you said and ignore reality. If you want the liberals to learn the lessons of this election that's what you should expect to more of - the left just rampantly making shit up about you and your policies, because apparently that's what works.

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 7:36 AM, jakee said:

...is there anything more echo chambery than pretending the people who voted against you simpy don't exist?

There's at least one liberal here who believes that the most interest to buy and 'save' DZ.com can be found in this SC forum which doesn't even discuss skydiving; a rather loud cry to preserve a political echo chamber. And, if he's correct and the forum is indeed saved.by SC members then I can bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll still be here like furniture. Where else will you find a community that gives 'likes' to your comments?  If it doesn't work out then there will nearly always be clouds you could shout at.

[jakee 1,569]

  On 11/13/2024 at 8:28 AM, metalslug said:

There's at least one liberal here who believes that the most interest to buy and 'save' DZ.com can be found in this SC forum which doesn't even discuss skydiving; a rather loud cry to preserve a political echo chamber. 

Lol, Joe goes well out of his way not to like or echo much of what I have to say. 

But back to the point that you have just very artfully dodged - is there any possible way the Left could show less humility and less willingness to hear what the other side values than the Right did after the last election? They’re still pretending that the people who voted against them don’t even exist, much less need to be listened to

[nigel99 584]

  On 11/13/2024 at 8:28 AM, metalslug said:

There's at least one liberal here who believes that the most interest to buy and 'save' DZ.com can be found in this SC forum which doesn't even discuss skydiving; a rather loud cry to preserve a political echo chamber. And, if he's correct and the forum is indeed saved.by SC members then I can bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll still be here like furniture. Where else will you find a community that gives 'likes' to your comments?  If it doesn't work out then there will nearly always be clouds you could shout at.

Take 30 seconds to look at the last time forums other than SC were posted in. There are times bonfire which used to be vibrant goes a week or so with no posts. 

As much as you say it’s a liberal echo chamber, this is one place where posters do get a mix of political views. Unfortunately for quite some time the ‘alternative view’ posters have posted with the express purpose of trolling. 

Breaking my self imposed rule of not naming posters, there are some interesting right wing posters who tend to stand by their convictions - Bigun and Ron being top of the list, with you and base being relatively new to frequent posting as well. 

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 9:31 AM, nigel99 said:

Take 30 seconds to look at the last time forums other than SC were posted in. There are times bonfire which used to be vibrant goes a week or so with no posts.

This is my point too. If SC is the most active forum then why save dropzone.com ? Is it the hosting platform that's useful or the domain name?  Would SC members rename it  democratzone.com and drop all the other forums?

[wmw999 2,558]

You could answer the more topical questions that folks are asking about lies, and leave the discussion of whether SC is an echo chamber (it is) to the "save dz.com" thread. I'm wondering, too, if you think lying is fine as long as it furthers your political or economic aims. This is just me as a person saying that, not me as a moderator. 

As far as other right-leaning posters, yeah, it can be vicious here. I agree, and wish it weren't as vicious. But then I'm a namby-pamby type of liberal, I guess. 

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,859]

  On 11/13/2024 at 8:41 AM, jakee said:

Lol, Joe goes well out of his way not to like or echo much of what I have to say. 

True, but I absolutely love what you do. That alone is worth a grand.

[winsor 236]

I'm reminded of an observation from a regular at the Convention, where he said he likely came to be there when it ended.

rec.skydiving ran its course, and the noise: signal ratio got out of hand.

DZ.com has had a good run as well.  SC has become less tolerant/more toxic over time, and too many posters are a waste of bandwidth.  Quite who has merit depends on one's position -  there are liberal posters that are offensive to the left, conservative posters that are offensive to the right, and some that have nothing but venom for those they perceive to be in opposition to their position.

The humorless tone of SC makes it remarkably shallow.  Anyone criticizing one sacred cow or another is deemed a troll, whether their point is made up or well referenced.  Talk about boring...

If SC was rife with scintillating wit that would be one thing but, unfortunately, it is anything but.

If DZ.com survives, fine.  If it goes by the wayside, so be it.

[billvon 3,088]

  On 11/13/2024 at 9:56 AM, metalslug said:

If SC is the most active forum then why save dropzone.com ?

For the contents of the Incidents and S+T forums.

  Quote

Would SC members rename it  democratzone.com and drop all the other forums?

There are a million other political forums you can find so - no.  The value in this place is the information in the topical forums, not the nonsense here,

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  On 11/13/2024 at 3:47 AM, metalslug said:

Isn't that what a great many Dem presidents have already done? Obama must have had carpal tunnel after signing 1927 pardons during his terms and I'm fairly sure they were not all white folk in blue states.  I'm fine if he pardoned any convictions that had weak cases.   I certainly should assume that you're fine with it.

That didn't answer the question as to whether you are in favour of mass release of black and latino prisoners due to systemic racism and bias in the southern justice system?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  On 11/13/2024 at 4:50 PM, billvon said:

For the contents of the Incidents and S+T forums.

There are a million other political forums you can find so - no.  The value in this place is the information in the topical forums, not the nonsense here,

It is somewhat ironic that this forum was created to move the gun and politics noise out of the other forums. Now only the noise is active.

[nigel99 584]

  On 11/13/2024 at 5:00 PM, SkyDekker said:

It is somewhat ironic that this forum was created to move the gun and politics noise out of the other forums. Now only the noise is active.

The noise drowns out the gunshots :)

How long since we’ve had a really heated argument about the 2nd amendment?

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 4:57 PM, SkyDekker said:

That didn't answer the question as to whether you are in favour of mass release of black and latino prisoners due to systemic racism and bias in the southern justice system?

Actually it did, unless you're not comparing your question to mine.

My concern was with the zealous application of laws (on poor evidence) by a judiciary and jury pool in deep blue DC. I have no problem with the laws themselves. In that regard it was asked and answered; " I'm fine if he pardoned any convictions that had weak cases."

Now; if you'd like to debate the laws themselves then there are a few previous (dead horse) SC threads about that for you to peruse. 

There's a new DA in Los Angeles who has vowed to be tougher on crime there (which is not the same as weak cases). No doubt that he will be called a racist by the left for vowing that, if not already has been.  

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:02 PM, metalslug said:

Actually it did, unless you're not comparing your question to mine.

My concern was with the zealous application of laws (on poor evidence) by a judiciary and jury pool in deep blue DC. I have no problem with the laws themselves. In that regard it was asked and answered; " I'm fine if he pardoned any convictions that had weak cases."

Now; if you'd like to debate the laws themselves then there are a few previous (dead horse) SC threads about that for you to peruse. 

There's a new DA in Los Angeles who has vowed to be tougher on crime there (which is not the same as weak cases). No doubt that he will be called a racist by the left for vowing that, if not already has been.  

Except you said the cases in DC area weak solely because of the political leaning of DC.

In the south you aren't willing to make the same determination.

That's the difference.

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:04 PM, SkyDekker said:

Except you said the cases in DC area weak solely because of the political leaning of DC.

In the south you aren't willing to make the same determination.

That's the difference.

No that's not what I said. I don't believe partisan bias can make a legal case weak but rather only impacts whether a judge or jury requires a strong case to convict. I have no doubt such bias has occurred in those Southern states but whataboutism doesn't make it right.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:17 PM, metalslug said:

No that's not what I said. I don't believe partisan bias can make a legal case weak but rather only impacts whether a judge or jury requires a strong case to convict. I have no doubt such bias has occurred in those Southern states but whataboutism doesn't make it right.

Only caring when it affects white people doesn't make it right either....

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 4:50 PM, billvon said:

For the contents of the Incidents and S+T forums.

There are a million other political forums you can find so - no.  The value in this place is the information in the topical forums, not the nonsense here,

That's fair comment and I should probably be less flippant in my own comments regarding this. I've been on-and-off these forums for almost 20 years and had a fondness for them for at least 10 of those, until I stopped jumping, and then SC largely for its' comedic value. Agreed there's a wealth of genuinely good skydiving information here that would be a shame to lose.

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:18 PM, SkyDekker said:

Only caring when it affects white people doesn't make it right either....

What part of this are you still missing? " I'm fine if he pardoned any convictions that had weak cases." 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:23 PM, metalslug said:

What part of this are you still missing? " I'm fine if he pardoned any convictions that had weak cases." 

It's not as though the justice system in deep blue DC at the time was acting impartially on people who they knew would not have the resources to appeal.

That kind of makes all cases weak, doesn't it....

[jakee 1,569]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:02 PM, metalslug said:

My concern was with the zealous application of laws (on poor evidence) by a judiciary and jury pool in deep blue DC. 

Any particular cases that have been prosecuted on poor evidence?

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:17 PM, metalslug said:

I have no doubt such bias has occurred in those Southern states but whataboutism doesn't make it right.

CRT is right, then.

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:28 PM, SkyDekker said:

It's not as though the justice system in deep blue DC at the time was acting impartially on people who they knew would not have the resources to appeal.

That kind of makes all cases weak, doesn't it....

??  How a justice system subjectively acts against people has very little to do with how strong the evidence in a case is. By "people" above I had specifically intended to refer to the group of Jan 6 protestors, some of whom absolutely had strong cases against them and should not be pardoned. For those with weaker evidence, as with cases in Southern states having weak evidence; I'm not losing sleep over those pardons.

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:31 PM, jakee said:

Any particular cases that have been prosecuted on poor evidence?

I would not know that any more than you do since we don't have access to the case files nor necessarily the knowledge of law to properly evaluate them. But; I'm prepared to go on faith for now that legal scholars perusing "on a case-by-case basis", as stated by the spokesperson, will find some.

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:31 PM, jakee said:

CRT is right, then.

The scope of CRT makes many more claims than merely the bias application and interpretation of Southern state laws. To claim that "CRT is right" is about as valid as the US election outcome vindicating every single republican policy. Arguments that we either both lose or both win.

[jakee 1,569]

  On 11/13/2024 at 10:38 PM, metalslug said:

For those with weaker evidence, as with cases in Southern states having weak evidence; I'm not losing sleep over those pardons.

At the moment you have no idea if there are any weak cases that have lead to convictions, you have simply decided that there are. So when Trump standard pardoning people, shouldn’t we assume you’ll do the same thing and simply decide that the people he’s pardoning are the ones with weak cases?

[metalslug 36]

  On 11/13/2024 at 11:12 PM, jakee said:

At the moment you have no idea if there are any weak cases that have lead to convictions, you have simply decided that there are. So when Trump standard pardoning people, shouldn’t we assume you’ll do the same thing and simply decide that the people he’s pardoning are the ones with weak cases?

We're back to subjective argument here. Yes, I will decide that as opinion on balance of probability, as we both may decide that Southern states had similar cases or that you may decide that "CRT is right".

[billvon 3,088]

  On 11/13/2024 at 11:19 PM, metalslug said:

We're back to subjective argument here. Yes, I will decide that as opinion on balance of probability, as we both may decide that Southern states had similar cases or that you may decide that "CRT is right".

CRT is not right or wrong, any more than American history is right or wrong.

But if you are talking about the decisions that led to the Bill of Rights, then you are using American history to make an argument, like it or not.  And if you are talking about systemic bias leading to unjust decisions in the South, you are using CRT, like it or not.