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QuoteQuotecoming from our government this is no surprise to me. they have been taking our money for all of our lives, what makes you think they wont get as much as they can???
...and we get absolutely nothing FOR that money do we.
Could the money be better spent is of course a rhetorical question...lots of the 'fat' could and should be trimmed. We're running the whole show on credit, but that's not the point of THIS discussion.
In the current real world, services are being downgraded and cut altogether across the board.
In my community we have less than 1/2 the police officers we did when I moved here 13 years ago and the city has nearly doubled in size.
In the small town my mother lives in they laid-off almost the entire fire department and went volunteer...the choice was no firemen, no cops, or none of either in the very near future.
Trust me, they ain't pullin' cats outta trees these days...there is no money for the type of services we've become accustomed to but plainly are not 'entitled' to without further tax burden.
Yes it's a bit of a 'slippery slope' deciding who is to get what, when and why, but for things like pulling a skydiver out of a tree, towing a sea-craft in that was carelessly run out of fuel, or yanking Tabby out of a tree for granny...common sense says yer probably gonna have to buck up something.
well doesn't 10,000 dollars for getting someone out of a tree sound a bit ridiculous? i know how to climb trees and the equipment involved, and 10,000 is WAY too much money.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."
QuoteQuoteQuotecoming from our government this is no surprise to me. they have been taking our money for all of our lives, what makes you think they wont get as much as they can???
...and we get absolutely nothing FOR that money do we.
Could the money be better spent is of course a rhetorical question...lots of the 'fat' could and should be trimmed. We're running the whole show on credit, but that's not the point of THIS discussion.
In the current real world, services are being downgraded and cut altogether across the board.
In my community we have less than 1/2 the police officers we did when I moved here 13 years ago and the city has nearly doubled in size.
In the small town my mother lives in they laid-off almost the entire fire department and went volunteer...the choice was no firemen, no cops, or none of either in the very near future.
Trust me, they ain't pullin' cats outta trees these days...there is no money for the type of services we've become accustomed to but plainly are not 'entitled' to without further tax burden.
Yes it's a bit of a 'slippery slope' deciding who is to get what, when and why, but for things like pulling a skydiver out of a tree, towing a sea-craft in that was carelessly run out of fuel, or yanking Tabby out of a tree for granny...common sense says yer probably gonna have to buck up something.
well doesn't 10,000 dollars for getting someone out of a tree sound a bit ridiculous? i know how to climb trees and the equipment involved, and 10,000 is WAY too much money.
I really don't know...it's sure a bill I wouldn't want to pay!
I'm not saying I agree with the billing or the amount, just that I understand the reasoning behind it.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
nigel99 572
QuoteQuoteLet's try to keep the discussion on the skydiving aspects of this and away from politics, please.
Okay...
When skydiving near trees, always have a helmet, gloves and a credit card!
Just get the dz to keep a chainsaw handy
And don't forget the rumour that gloves caused all this in the first place!Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
billvon 3,078
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>well doesn't 10,000 dollars for getting someone out of a tree sound a
>bit ridiculous? i know how to climb trees and the equipment involved, and
>10,000 is WAY too much money.
Well, it's way too much if you just like climbing trees. I know enough about mountain rescue to get someone off most routes at Yosemite, for example. But saying that therefore a mountain rescue should be really cheap doesn't really make sense.
>bit ridiculous? i know how to climb trees and the equipment involved, and
>10,000 is WAY too much money.
Well, it's way too much if you just like climbing trees. I know enough about mountain rescue to get someone off most routes at Yosemite, for example. But saying that therefore a mountain rescue should be really cheap doesn't really make sense.
vpjr 18
This case here. $10,000 for 21 guys, 4 hours = $119 per person per hour. I know that there must have been a big red truck involed but Im going to have to start charging more money or get into the "pulling people out of tree busniess". If the agencies broke the bill down better, Charged for the truck call out and a fair rate for the 3 or 4 guys instead of 21. I wouldnt have such a knee jerk reaction. If I was the city manager and 21 guys put in a bill for that Id freak out.
My question is...WHO called for the rescue? Did HE call for it? If not, why doesn't he just say "I didn't call you, why am I being billed for this????
Just don't pay the emmmerefffer 
I don't want to make all the decisions because if I screw up, then I can't blame it on you...
jeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz... if i'm on the states for jump, and i land in a tree, don't call 911, remind me that bill, for sure i will climb down very fast....
Julio Cesar
blue skies
blue skies
Quote>well doesn't 10,000 dollars for getting someone out of a tree sound a
>bit ridiculous? i know how to climb trees and the equipment involved, and
>10,000 is WAY too much money.
Well, it's way too much if you just like climbing trees. I know enough about mountain rescue to get someone off most routes at Yosemite, for example. But saying that therefore a mountain rescue should be really cheap doesn't really make sense.
i was just mentioning my experience with trees because i know the kind of real world work it would take. that's why i said 10,000 is too expensive because it isnt a very complicated process.
i seriously doubt they needed 21 people to get 1 guy out of a tree. i am not saying that it should cost $10, but 10k is a lot for the service that was rendered.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."
Skwrl 56
Pepperell is one of the DZs that I jump at.
It's a small-ish community, but a $10,000 bill, in the scheme of things, will not bankrupt the town. I'm of mixed thoughts on this. If you're a "people should be responsible for their own shit and government should stay out of my way" person, then I think you have to agree with billing him, unless he refused their services and they provided it anyway.
If you're a "government sometimes provides a common good and taxes people to do so", then you get his rescue free, but you have to put up with a bunch of other self-inflicted stuff that people do.
I'd propose a negligence standard here: if you aren't reasonable in what you're doing (what would a reasonable licensed skydiver do) then you have to pay for it. Doesn't sound like he was negligent, but...
It's a small-ish community, but a $10,000 bill, in the scheme of things, will not bankrupt the town. I'm of mixed thoughts on this. If you're a "people should be responsible for their own shit and government should stay out of my way" person, then I think you have to agree with billing him, unless he refused their services and they provided it anyway.
If you're a "government sometimes provides a common good and taxes people to do so", then you get his rescue free, but you have to put up with a bunch of other self-inflicted stuff that people do.
I'd propose a negligence standard here: if you aren't reasonable in what you're doing (what would a reasonable licensed skydiver do) then you have to pay for it. Doesn't sound like he was negligent, but...
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
If you have health insurance, doesn't your insurance coverage cover medical stuff (rescues and emergency services) that arise? If that is the case, wouldn't this be covered under that?
Scrumpot 1
What if this wasn't a tree (read, more "spectacular") rescue? What if it was instead a "routine" injury / ambulance call to the DZ? Are they also going to start billing for those?? Just because you are "choosing" / "voluntarily" taking part in a "high-risk sport" I don't think - should NEGATE your access to public (your own tax paid) services!! Where does - or will it end then? Off-road dirt-biker crashes? Etc., Etc. - Who decides then, what is "reasonable" and "acceptable" versus what is not??
Sure - for a falsified missing persons report, resulting in an UNNECESSARY Search and Rescue or such - as some other examples have been cited - send the "perpetrator" a bill. However, this jumper is NOT a perpetrator, and this (fire/rescue) is precisely what our (and presumably his - as a local citizen ...even if he weren't though, no matter) PUBLIC SERVICE tax $ are paid for! 
My .02
coitus non circum - Moab Stone
Scrumpot 1
Just for added further instance / fodder / food-for thought...
Wake-boarding, kite-surfing, water-skiing, scuba-diving, trail hiking etc., etc., activities also take place along even just the confines of Essex County (Gloucester, Manchester, Ipswich, Beverly, Rowley, Salem, etc.) all the time too. I grew up in that area (where all this is now - at least with this particular bill being charged) is hailing from. I've seen in my time there, some rather "involved" rescues have to take place as a result of ALL those activities. Should those folks requiring multiple services to pull them from the surf, or rescue them when they've fallen hiking the rocky shores areas around Rafe's Chasm - or trails of Agasis Rocks be billed for their rescue services too?
Think about it. Where does it end? And then who decides what is "acceptable" & when?
Wake-boarding, kite-surfing, water-skiing, scuba-diving, trail hiking etc., etc., activities also take place along even just the confines of Essex County (Gloucester, Manchester, Ipswich, Beverly, Rowley, Salem, etc.) all the time too. I grew up in that area (where all this is now - at least with this particular bill being charged) is hailing from. I've seen in my time there, some rather "involved" rescues have to take place as a result of ALL those activities. Should those folks requiring multiple services to pull them from the surf, or rescue them when they've fallen hiking the rocky shores areas around Rafe's Chasm - or trails of Agasis Rocks be billed for their rescue services too?
Think about it. Where does it end? And then who decides what is "acceptable" & when?
coitus non circum - Moab Stone
Zlew 0
Quote
I'd propose a negligence standard here: if you aren't reasonable in what you're doing (what would a reasonable licensed skydiver do) then you have to pay for it. Doesn't sound like he was negligent, but...
So then you are having a whuffo (fire/police chief etc.) determining if how you got hurt was reasonable or not at an event they weren't even there for. Do you really want someone who thinks we are crazy, and has no idea of anything about jumping trying to determine if you had enough altitude to do a half brake turn to avoid the tree, had the proper body position on your PLF, or tried to do a high performance landing in winds that were 2mph over your skill level?
Ron 10
QuoteIn terms of auto accidents, it does get a little fuzzier there, but I think the bottom line is that automoblie transportation is a given in this country, and the risk associated is an accpeted part of life. If a municipality wants to have roads that run through it, providing an avenue (no pun intended) for consumers to come in to the city, and they want to accept state or federal funds to help maintain those roads, then they need to be willing to accept the costs related to possible accidents within their borders. They also have the option to lower speed limits and increase enforcement to minimize the number and scope of those accidents, thus limiting the financial outlay of the 'clean up'.
Some City's were planning on charging for emergency services *IF* you didn't live in the City. I know Dallas was planning to do this.
I don't really like it.... I think it is a perfect example of why I don't like taxes at all really. I pay taxes to cover this type of BS. Yes, I may not pay taxes in that municipality, but I also think my municipality should cover people who don't pay taxes here when they are here.
In my ideal little world you would have to pay the bill, but not taxes. Since we have to pay taxes... the bill should not have to be paid by an individual.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
sundevil777 102
Quotei seriously doubt they needed 21 people to get 1 guy out of a tree.
Quite right!
The extras showed up because they were bored/saw it as an opportunity to get some training, even if just by watching others do it.
The guy that got rescued should charge the city for providing the training opportunity.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
skyrider 0
There is no way in hell it took 21 guys.,.they are charging him for Lookie loos!
This could have all been avoided with a tree rescue team from the DZ. I guess this may not be practical at all DZs, but we have one. There are two of us at the DZ who climb or have climbed trees for a living. We communicate with each other if one will be missing a weekend so as to make sure the other will have their gear on sight. We have considered putting together a DZ climbing gear set so that we would not have to haul personals back and forth. This would be an option, along with some basic training, for a DZ that did not have climbers on staff.
This is really a necessity at our DZ as it is located in the town of lumberton and pine trees are everywhere. Although there are plenty of outs to be found, we still average climbing at least once for each cut away there, either for the canopy or free bag, sometimes both. Keeping the extra gear required to belay a jumper out of a tree is very minimal when you already have what you need to get up the tree.
In the 6 years that I have been jumping, my "team mate" and I have performed 4 tree rescues. One was on the edge of the highway where a fresh AFF graduate cleared all but the last tree to get back into the LZ. The police were quick to the scene after local traffic called it in. Upon arrival, the officer in charge quickly assessed that all was being handled. He helped with traffic and within 10 minutes the student and the canopy were safely on the ground. Then the police were happily on their way and no bill was issued.
I only read the first page of this thread so forgive me if this was already said. Now about what I did read, this is my $.02
1) Rescue service should be free
2) Those that choose to put themselves at risk should expect to pay for rescue services
3) I don't know where to draw the line between 1 & 2
4) 21 guys for 4 hours at $10.000 works out to ~$120 per hour. This is double the rate the same guys would be charging for the same gear and labor if they would be working in public sector rather than the government.
5) If it takes more than 2 guys for more than 1 hour to get someone out of a tree, there or either some very extenuating circumstances, or there are at least 2 guys there that do not know what the shit they are doing.
6) For the average tree rescue with a conscious rescue-e, start to finish is under 30 min if working by myself. With two people used to working together, one climbing and one on the ground, I would say 10 min.
7) I did not read the article. Extenuating circumstances may have applied, but I doubt 84 man hours worth.
This is really a necessity at our DZ as it is located in the town of lumberton and pine trees are everywhere. Although there are plenty of outs to be found, we still average climbing at least once for each cut away there, either for the canopy or free bag, sometimes both. Keeping the extra gear required to belay a jumper out of a tree is very minimal when you already have what you need to get up the tree.
In the 6 years that I have been jumping, my "team mate" and I have performed 4 tree rescues. One was on the edge of the highway where a fresh AFF graduate cleared all but the last tree to get back into the LZ. The police were quick to the scene after local traffic called it in. Upon arrival, the officer in charge quickly assessed that all was being handled. He helped with traffic and within 10 minutes the student and the canopy were safely on the ground. Then the police were happily on their way and no bill was issued.
I only read the first page of this thread so forgive me if this was already said. Now about what I did read, this is my $.02
1) Rescue service should be free
2) Those that choose to put themselves at risk should expect to pay for rescue services
3) I don't know where to draw the line between 1 & 2
4) 21 guys for 4 hours at $10.000 works out to ~$120 per hour. This is double the rate the same guys would be charging for the same gear and labor if they would be working in public sector rather than the government.
5) If it takes more than 2 guys for more than 1 hour to get someone out of a tree, there or either some very extenuating circumstances, or there are at least 2 guys there that do not know what the shit they are doing.
6) For the average tree rescue with a conscious rescue-e, start to finish is under 30 min if working by myself. With two people used to working together, one climbing and one on the ground, I would say 10 min.
7) I did not read the article. Extenuating circumstances may have applied, but I doubt 84 man hours worth.
Okay...
When skydiving near trees, always have a helmet, gloves and a credit card!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
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