Who will replace Biden?

[JoeWeber 2,857]

22 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I think that we’re forgetting that “democratic,” “fair,” “legal,” “American,” and lots of other concepts (like “true”) are seen very differently by the non-center left and right. And that the farther out on the fringe, the less respect one has for the others’s viewpoint, or even their right to a different viewpoint.

We have to fix that. Freedom means different things to different people. I don’t agree with all of their definitions, but just calling them wrong doesn’t help. Gotta engage with respect for their experiences

Wendy P  

 

That's a great way of viewing life except when our asses are on the line. Engaging with respect for differences, thus far, has too often devolved into being empathetic until defeated. Let's be philosophic about it later, now lets get back in power by hook or by crook. If the opposition believes I'm engaging them with respect I'll take it if it gets us closer to a win. To be absolutely clear, I do not believe honest dialogue and genuine respect are possibilities at this stage; now it is time to play by their rules, odious as it may be to do so, and play to get the win.  

[JoeWeber 2,857]

8 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Far right, Far left. Same. Same. 

Negative. Far right is leading us to autocracy and far left is leading us to a more socialized democracy. Bad as each are in my view, one of those is definitely much less desirable.

[wmw999 2,558]

49 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Negative. Far right is leading us to autocracy and far left is leading us to a more socialized democracy. Bad as each are in my view, one of those is definitely much less desirable.

Except that reality is that they exist, they have the same rights as everyone else, and they’re being radicalized by a combination of propaganda and isolation from competing ideas. Politics may not be as local as it used to be, but community action sure is. And inviting someone you disagree with to a table or project where you both can contribute is a way to keep it local and fight at least the isolation from exposure to the outside world.

I live in a liberal bubble; it’s a little harder to do that. But damn I was sick of Texas. I have good friends here who wish they’d been there on Jan 6, but they listened to me when I told them, based on my personal experience, why I thought they were full of shit. That’s the first step  

Wendy P. 

[jakee 1,568]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Far right, Far left. Same. Same. 

That's just lazy bullshit thinking though, isn't it?

The far right is now in near total control of the Republican party. The far left is barely represented on the fringes of the Democrat party. They are not the same, no matter how much you would like to feel better about your decisions by pretending they are.

[jakee 1,568]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

I think you are missing the fact that most on the right are believers who do indeed know for sure that their policies are best for their society. Most of them are sincere. Which is why they also believe that the ends justify the means. 

Not exactly. Start with the simple fact that right wing social and economic policies are fundamentally more selfish than left wing social policies and already you start to doubt that they are sure their policies are better for society rather than just better for them. Then you look at the number of times their rhetoric and their actions are diametrically opposed and it becomes clearer that the power is the number one goal and the rest is an afterthought.

As one prominent example look at Marco Rubio right now. We know for sure that he genuinely believes that opposing Russia and supporting Ukraine to the hilt is the right thing to do but in order to stay close to power he instead throws Nato allies under the bus and publicly licks Putin's balls because Trump told him to. If he had a shred of sincerity he'd have resigned after a week and joined John Bolton on the TV pundit circuit.

[JoeWeber 2,857]

49 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Except that reality is that they exist, they have the same rights as everyone else, and they’re being radicalized by a combination of propaganda and isolation from competing ideas. Politics may not be as local as it used to be, but community action sure is. And inviting someone you disagree with to a table or project where you both can contribute is a way to keep it local and fight at least the isolation from exposure to the outside world.

I live in a liberal bubble; it’s a little harder to do that. But damn I was sick of Texas. I have good friends here who wish they’d been there on Jan 6, but they listened to me when I told them, based on my personal experience, why I thought they were full of shit. That’s the first step  

Wendy P. 

Sure but it's not same same in my opinion: the far right are vastly more corrosive to the sort of society that I prefer. Also, I'd wager that in addition to listening to you they were also humoring you. I believe we aren't dissuading many, if any, MAGA's now that they feel empowered and I have no intention of wasting time on the off chance I can turn one or two who became enlightened after their faces were chewed off. We simply need to humor them as we drift to the middle, pretending to or not, and hope they have had their fill of Trumpism when alone in the voting booth, and put up candidates for whom they'll vote. 

Edited May 15 by JoeWeber

[JerryBaumchen 1,451]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Understand and agree. 

"We" as Americans have got to STOP with the party alignment and work from the middle outwards TOGETHER for what's best for our nation. 

Hi Keith,

My Pie-in-the-Sky is that we get rid of ALL political parties.  Everyone would run on their own name & what they stand for/against.

I know, never gonna happen.

Hey, one can dream can't they?

Jerry Baumchen

[BIGUN 1,438]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

My Pie-in-the-Sky is that we get rid of ALL political parties.  Everyone would run on their own name & what they stand for/against.

Welcome to the Independent Party.

Over the past ten/fifteen years, I have seen a greater division between the left and right. No willingness to compromise, find middle ground, each side giving a little. It got so bad that I was up nights - angry. 

I have numerous friends, fellow veterans that were born and raised conservative Democrat. We'd go hunting, fishing, etc. and discuss political tactics. They were a bit different, but the Venn diagram intersection was much bigger than it is today.

Today it's either all left or all right with no intersection. Almost all of them didn't even vote this time (in part, because Oklahoma has a red electoral college) and in part because they too, didn’t feel like they had a choice. They didn't get to vote for the choice in the primaries.

Meanwhile, my town of Tulsa elected a democratic mayor for the first time in 35 years. I voted for his democratic counterpart because I've known her for about 30 years and she is passionate about what is best for the city, not her party.    

The only way to spit myself out of the nastiness was to take a more neutral position. From now on; I vote for whom I think is the person most likely to do more for their constituents, their community and the best for our nation.

[BIGUN 1,438]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

That's just lazy bullshit thinking though, isn't it?

Aaaaaand . . . back on ignore. 

[JoeWeber 2,857]

3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Welcome to the Independent Party.

Over the past ten/fifteen years, I have seen a greater division between the left and right. No willingness to compromise, find middle ground, each side giving a little. It got so bad that I was up nights - angry. 

I have numerous friends, fellow veterans that were born and raised conservative Democrat. We'd go hunting, fishing, etc. and discuss political tactics. They were a bit different, but the Venn diagram intersection was much bigger than it is today.

Today it's either all left or all right with no intersection. Almost all of them didn't even vote this time (in part, because Oklahoma has a red electoral college) and in part because they too, didn’t feel like they had a choice. They didn't get to vote for the choice in the primaries.

Meanwhile, my town of Tulsa elected a democratic mayor for the first time in 35 years. I voted for his democratic counterpart because I've known her for about 30 years and she is passionate about what is best for the city, not her party.    

The only way to spit myself out of the nastiness was to take a more neutral position. From now on; I vote for whom I think is the person most likely to do more for their constituents, their community and the best for our nation.

That's all well and good but unfortunately the choices we were offered last time were not well and good. 

[billvon 3,087]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

Not exactly. Start with the simple fact that right wing social and economic policies are fundamentally more selfish than left wing social policies and already you start to doubt that they are sure their policies are better for society rather than just better for them.

But they don't see it that way.  They see it as supporting independence, getting the poor "back on their feet," getting government out of the way etc.

[jakee 1,568]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

But they don't see it that way.  They see it as supporting independence, getting the poor "back on their feet," getting government out of the way etc.

Do they though? Really? Or do they see it as ‘why should my tax dollars pay for someone else’s….’?

I’d say we’ve all heard that phrase too often to count, don’t you agree?

[jakee 1,568]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Aaaaaand . . . back on ignore. 

Good call. Just keep believing that even though the far right literally tried to overthrow the government at the direction of the president, the far left is just the same. Best to ignore anything that would upset your fantasy world.

[JerryBaumchen 1,451]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

That's all well and good but unfortunately the choices we were offered last time were not well and good. 

Hi Joe,

Looking back on 61 yrs of voting, I think the only 'good' choice I had was in 2008 & 2012; I voted for Obama.  I still really like him.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,451]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Welcome to the Independent Party.

Over the past ten/fifteen years, I have seen a greater division between the left and right. No willingness to compromise, find middle ground, each side giving a little. It got so bad that I was up nights - angry. 

I have numerous friends, fellow veterans that were born and raised conservative Democrat. We'd go hunting, fishing, etc. and discuss political tactics. They were a bit different, but the Venn diagram intersection was much bigger than it is today.

Today it's either all left or all right with no intersection. Almost all of them didn't even vote this time (in part, because Oklahoma has a red electoral college) and in part because they too, didn’t feel like they had a choice. They didn't get to vote for the choice in the primaries.

Meanwhile, my town of Tulsa elected a democratic mayor for the first time in 35 years. I voted for his democratic counterpart because I've known her for about 30 years and she is passionate about what is best for the city, not her party.    

The only way to spit myself out of the nastiness was to take a more neutral position. From now on; I vote for whom I think is the person most likely to do more for their constituents, their community and the best for our nation.

Hi Keith,

Here in Oregon, there is a political party named the Independent Party.  I am not a member.

Here, I am a Non-Affiliated voter.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,451]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Sure but it's not same same in my opinion: the far right are vastly more corrosive to the sort of society that I prefer. Also, I'd wager that in addition to listening to you they were also humoring you. I believe we aren't dissuading many, if any, MAGA's now that they feel empowered and I have no intention of wasting time on the off chance I can turn one or two who became enlightened after their faces were chewed off. We simply need to humor them as we drift to the middle, pretending to or not, and hope they have had their fill of Trumpism when alone in the voting booth, and put up candidates for whom they'll vote. 

Hi Joe,

You were saying:  

On X, Randy, who identifies as a "Former democrat now only vote for REAL Republicans," wrote, "We all know how amy coney barrett going to be voting. She will be officially joining the libtard team at the SCOTUS. Wonder which path roberts going to take."

 Ratso, whose X account is littered with attacks on Muslims, agreed and wrote, "There is nothing worse than a traitor among us. Americans hate them with every fiber of their being. Justices Amy Coney Barrett and John Roberts are such people."

Now, if we all could just be a little more open-minded.

NOT!

Jerry Baumchen

'Traitor among us': Coney Barrett infuriates Trump's fans by backing Kagan at hearing

 

[billvon 3,087]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

Do they though? Really? Or do they see it as ‘why should my tax dollars pay for someone else’s….’?

I'd say many of them see it both ways.  Reducing government dependence also reduces their tax bill, so they see it as a win/win.

[jakee 1,568]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

I'd say many of them see it both ways.  Reducing government dependence also reduces their tax bill, so they see it as a win/win.

Well isn’t life full of happy coincidences.