Is it worth considering going head low/down to deal with a PC in tow before the reserve is popped?

[Newbie 0]

Thinking about PC in tow's again...

Pull, nothing, look up, PC in tow. From my experience, regardless of if we are talking to cut away or not to cutaway and then reserve, i know the problem some people have had has been to have the PC of the reserve entangle with the PC of the towing main.

So, is angling the head/midrift down, so your back is now more aligned to the horizon, rather than pointing directly up into space, THEN pulling reserve (after a cutaway or not, whatever) is this a good idea, since, if the spring pops the reserve PC away horizontally, it would make it less likely to entangle with the main PC and bridle, hopefully getting more clean air?

It sounds far fetched, but is there any validity to this line of thought?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[davelepka 4]

You can pont yourlesf in any direction you please, your PC's will always follow the relative wind.

However, lets remember you're about to have a terminal reserve deployment. Do you really want to be head low at this point? I woudln't.

To cap it all off, this is a high speed malfunction. I'mnot sure how many times you've rehearsed your reserve pull procedure at terminal, but I have a feeling that when the time comes, and you're faced with a left hand ripcord pull, minor adjusments to your body position will be the last thing on your mind.

Good luck.

[Newbie 0]

Good points, thanks.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[NelKel 0]

I have a buddy who was filming a tandem, so he had the opertunity to pull high after the tandem. He had a PC "hesitation" I'll call it. We were all watching from the ground, when I said shit, cause I saw him pitch. He angled head low and the PC cleared, lucky for him cause he was probably at 1500 when his main was fully deployed. He had a pull out deployment device.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[davelepka 4]

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he had the opertunity to pull high after the tandem. He had a PC "hesitation"

the PC cleared, lucky for him cause he was probably at 1500 when his main was fully deployed.

Thats pretty fucked up. What happened to all the time between pulling and 2200ft? Nap time? Did he get an important phone call?

This was with a pull out? Was it a lazy pull? That will put a pull out PC on your back. Going head low will clear it, but dropping a shoulder will too, and is a better plan.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

If you're on a BASE jump and you have a PC in tow you try to do everything in your power to survive (you have the rest of your life to deal with this mal). But on a skydive it's better just to cutaway and go to your reserve.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[diablopilot 2]

No.

#1 the Main P/C will still be right where the reserve P/C is going to go, since the its going to seek the relative wind. (One minor argument FOR the pull-out system)

#2 Don't wait time. It's a high speed mal, you don't have the time. Freefall rigging is a bad idea, get a canopy over your head.

Just my 2.5 cents.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 10]

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So, is angling the head/midrift down, so your back is now more aligned to the horizon, rather than pointing directly up into space, THEN pulling reserve (after a cutaway or not, whatever) is this a good idea, since, if the spring pops the reserve PC away horizontally, it would make it less likely to entangle with the main PC and bridle, hopefully getting more clean air?

It sounds far fetched, but is there any validity to this line of thought?

You burn through 1,000 feet every 6 seconds. The last 500 feet are not good for much if you have not already done anything.

How long do you think it will take you to reach, find, and pull your reserve?

It will take a lot longer than you think since you have probebly never done it in freefall.

Lets say you pitch your main by 3,000 feet. How long will it take you to realize you have a problem? We used to teach "count to 4 and check canopy".

167 feet per second X 5 seconds = 835 feet spent checking. (now at 2165)

So now you are at 2165. How long do you think you ask, "What the hell!" before you realize the situation? 2 seconds?
167 X 2 = 334. 2165 - 334 = 1831

How long does it take to locate, reach, and pull your reserve? 4 seconds if everything goes right? (remember you have NEVER pulled this before in freefall, or EVER done pratice pulls in freefall)
4 seconds X 167 = 668. 1831 - 668 = 1163.

Say 200 feet for the reserve to open (TSO).

963 feet or 5.76 seconds before impact if everything goes right....so if you had pulled at 2,000 you would be dead already.

Do you think you have the time to do this? Also 167 is for flat dumb and stable. Start pitching yourself around and you are asking for trouble.

167 is 113 MPH.
Use 176 for 120.

11 seconds X 176 fps = 1936 + 200 = 2136
2136 - 3000 = 864 feet or 4.9 seconds left.

Do you think it is wise to plan to spend extra time when you only have a margin of 5-6 seconds if everything goes right? If you spend 7 seconds before you reconcognize its a PC in tow, fumble with the reserve pull...Well you are dead.

STOP THE SKYDIVE.

Also while looking for the reserve...You most likley will not stay perfectly stable. So that might launch your PC.

But I would not waste much time trying to do it before I stopped the jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ladyskydiver 0]

There is a fatality in the incident's forum as a result of someone screwing around with a PC in tow and not going to reserve. You decide.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[sundevil777 102]

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angling the head/midrift down, so your back is now more aligned to the horizon, rather than pointing directly up into space

Sounds like you're assuming a PC in tow will put you head high, I don't think this is true.

What do you mean by "pointing directly up", your head or back?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnRich 4]

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So, is angling the head/midrift down, so your back is now more aligned to the horizon, rather than pointing directly up into space, THEN pulling reserve (after a cutaway or not, whatever) is this a good idea, since, if the spring pops the reserve PC away horizontally, it would make it less likely to entangle with the main PC and bridle, hopefully getting more clean air? It sounds far fetched, but is there any validity to this line of thought?

If I understand you correctly... It seems that you think a pilot chute in tow will stand you upright. Not necessarily so. I've had one pilot chute in tow, and stayed horizontal. I've also had a bag lock with the bag in tow, and stayed horizontal. There really isn't enough drag in such a situation to affect your body position, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, your point is valid. You want to be as horizontal as possible, in order to maximize the separation between your in-tow pilot chute and your deploying reserve pilot chute. This minimizes the chances for main/reserve pilot chute entanglement. If your body is head high or head low, the angles are such that the pilot chutes are closer together, which is bad.

So, do what you can to be horizontal, and do it quick, but don't waste time on it. Remember the priorities: Pull. Pull on time. Pull stable.

Attached: Crude drawing in explanation.

[Yossarian 0]

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If you spend 7 seconds before you reconcognize its a PC in tow, fumble with the reserve pull...Well you are dead.

thank holy crap for the cypres eh? read a few articles on the cypres website about saves (been alot more than i thought) and there a loads who've had a pc in tow and not been able to find their reserve in flat (baggy clothing, not where they thought it would be etc) and have just given it up for over and waited for the cypres to kick in at 750, think the average reserve ride was about 7secs...

[ladyskydiver 0]

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thank holy crap for the cypres eh? read a few articles on the cypres website about saves (been alot more than i thought) and there a loads who've had a pc in tow and not been able to find their reserve in flat (baggy clothing, not where they thought it would be etc) and have just given it up for over and waited for the cypres to kick in at 750, think the average reserve ride was about 7secs...

And good thing for those people that they lucked out and the cypress worked as it is supposed to. A cypress or any AAD is a mechanical device that can fail. Do not rely on it to save your ass.

Keep pulling all your handles and fighting to get a workable canopy above your head until your goggles fill with blood.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Yossarian 0]

i know it shouldnt be relied upon, all im saying is to someone who would otherwise have no chance its a very good thing, im not saying u should think 'ooh, pc i tow, ill just let the cypres deal with that'

[Scoop 0]

With my fresh out of groundschool head on Id be looking over my shoulder to check if I had a canopy over my head (I know it'd be obvious it hasnt as ive had a PC in tow mal myself - amybe more of a hesitation) if the PC doesnt launch off in the time its taking me to have a minor brain fart thinking whats going on then id cut away and pull silver! Luckily before, me changing my body position was enough to get the PC out of the burble but the result was basatard line twists!

[Yossarian 0]

on my cat 8 jump i had 5secs of pc hesitation (spring loaded pc), video scared the pants off my mum :) i knew something was wrong when the spring hit me on the head then hit my foot, camera guy said he thought it was gonna horseshoe round my leg cos thats when i started wriggling like a man possessed to clear the burble, u can see my hands goin down to my handles when it pops out and opens so hard it turned my groin black. nice :)

[JohnMitchell 16]

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T
So, is angling the head/midrift down, so your back is now more aligned to the horizon, rather than pointing directly up into space, THEN pulling reserve (after a cutaway or not, whatever) is this a good idea?

Yes, the recommended procedure, from when throwouts were brand new, was to lay flat and stable and pull the reserve. Being flat to the relative wind gives the most clearance possible between the main pilot chute and the reserve pilot chute.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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was gonna horseshoe round my leg cos thats when i started wriggling like a man possessed to clear the burble,

Did they teach you to stay in your arch but look hard over your shoulder? That will (a) let you see what's going on and (b) send clean air over your back to launch the pilot chute.

I've had a number of hesitations and that method has worked really well. Ask your instructors.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Keep pulling all your handles and fighting to get a workable canopy above your head until your goggles fill with blood

How about until the ants look like people?

[tbrown 26]

Pretty chilling numbers. back about 25 years ago we had a fatality at Perris where the guy tried to haul in his pilot chute, as he apparently didn't want to risk entangling his reserve with the p/c. The gear was different then, the p/c was in tow because the bridle was wrapped a turn around the belly band where the pouch was mounted (which gave way to ROL and eventually BOC mounted pouches). And he had a round reserve, so no freebag. No AAD either.

History aside, the point is he was falling much too fast to be getting so creative and he died for his mistake. Plain fact is a p/c in tow is an ugly, dangerous, and terrifying malfunction and even the approved procedure is something of a crapshoot. But you can't win if you don't play, so priority numero uno is pull the damn reserve handle.

And I'm glad that AADs really have saved a lot of lives in these situations. Not RELYING on them for heaven's sake, but when the poo hits the prop this fast they can - and have - made a real difference improving the odds. An AAD might have saved that guy 25 years ago, if we'd had good reliable ones back then.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[davelepka 4]

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A cypress or any AAD is a mechanical device that can fail.

So is your main, reserve and harness.

But yeah, don't wait for an AAD to fire. If you do fire an AAD, think golf.....

[NelKel 0]

he had the opertunity to pull high after the tandem. He had a PC "hesitation"

the PC cleared, lucky for him cause he was probably at 1500 when his main was fully deployed.

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Thats pretty fucked up. What happened to all the time between pulling and 2200ft? Nap time? Did he get an important phone call?

This was with a pull out? Was it a lazy pull? That will put a pull out PC on your back. Going head low will clear it, but dropping a shoulder will too, and is a better plan<<<<<<<<<


Yes

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Yossarian 0]

i was basically taught to wriggle, ie. do anything to break the burble. i dont agree with 'if uve had an aad fire take up golf', as people have said, s***e happens, if i had a cypres go off id still jump unless someone physically stopped me. an aad fire is as much a non-fatality as an rsl working on someone who doesnt touch their reserve handle after a cutaway, for any reason.

[NelKel 0]

OK Yossarian, you will not be able to beat an RSl in EP's. The RSL will always beat you to reserve deployment under normal sercumstances.

AAD. With the Cypress firing altitude at 750 agl. Well that was your last chance to pull. If you haven't pulled at 750 agl, than a pull below will probably not save you.(Granted your at terminal) I have known jumpers who have pulled below 750 and lived, and I have known jumpers who pulled reserve below 750 and didn't make it to inflation.

IF you had a Cypress expert 2 save your ass, then either take up golf, or seriously retrain your EP's. Seriously. I am not trying to flame you, but this is why you read posters stateting "take up golf".

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Yossarian 0]

youve taken me out of context, i was simply saying that sometimes freak occurences could prevent u from carrying out complete procedures, thus making an aad a very handy piece of kit.
when i said about not touching the reserve and the rsl doing the work being the same as the cypres fire i stand by, its still relying on string to do the job your left hand should be doing, only its all academic cos noone could tell either way what you had done