Looking at alti to much ???

[skybytch 273]

Quote

My survival skills are what are most important to me at this point since my currency and my life do not allow me to jump every weekend mulitble times.

I like this comment. Survival skills should be the most important thing for all of us, but especially for those of us who can't, for whatever reasons, stay uber-current.

As you get more jumps in your logbook you'll likely find yourself needing to look at it less often (excepting that first jump after a couple weeks of not jumping). Until then do what you feel comfortable with and don't worry about what others think or say about it.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Jan's points are valid. Don't get testy because she didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. A 5500-6000ft break off alti _is_ excessive, esp on a flat jump, even at your experience level. That's up there at AFF-student altitude.

AFF pulls at 5500, not breaks off. With 1500ft (2000 for larger groups) recommended for tracking away, it's not *that* excessive.

But yeah, it would be better for her to look around during that 5s track and count it off rather than stare at the alti.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I think you will continue to run into PITA jumpers because a BO at 4k is ok for a 4-way (for B license and above). When your comfort level gets to that place, you'll find more jumpers willing to jump with you. As a steady diet, I would not want to do that (unless you were paying for my slot). Heck, we used to BO 20-ways at 3.5k (and still do every once in awhile). It's the canopy openings that are driving the opening altitudes up. Get a canopy that opens faster. I did and I also do things to augment openings when I have a 2k opening altitude. I will know by 1800 ft whether it's going to open or not.

I see this as more of a risk management decision than a comfort one, Jan. Your personal decisions are your's, but frankly, I think they're out of place in this particular forum. If I'm exiting a plane at 15-16k, why skdive an extra 3-5 seconds and reduce my time for EPs, or increase the odds of landing out on a long spot?

My decision now is driven by inexperience and never having to cutaway. In the future, I doubt I'll be pushing it below 4500/3000. It's not worth it.

[mattjw916 2]

At this point we exit the world of the "SIM" and enter the real world of skydiving:

Quote

AFF pulls at 5500, not breaks off.

AFF "no more manuevers", "lock-on" and "pull" atitudes vary by dropzone, instructor, level, and based on student's progression/awareness. They are not set in stone so you can't split hairs over something that has no ironclad standard.

Quote

With 1500ft (2000 for larger groups) recommended for tracking away, it's not *that* excessive.

Yes, it is. Almost every freefly jump I have ever been on breaks off at 5k due to faster fall-rate. Almost every flat jump I have ever been on breaks no higher than 4k unless is is _exceptionally_ large or involved something out of the norm. ~5 second tracks are the pretty much standard. You are splitting hairs again.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[HeatherB 0]

Have you done any "low" hop and pops? Meaning 4 grand or below?

If you like to pull high and the people you are jumping with are okay with it, that's cool. It begs a question about airplane emergencies though. Would you be okay with bailing out of a plane at say 2.5 or 3 grand during a possible emergency? You may need to someday. Could be tomorrow, could happen 10 years from now, you just don't know.

--Heather

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

Have you done any "low" hop and pops? Meaning 4 grand or below

Yes I have left the plane below 4 grand with a delay.

Quote

If you like to pull high and the people you are jumping with are okay with it, that's cool. It begs a question about airplane emergencies though. Would you be okay with bailing out of a plane at say 2.5 or 3 grand during a possible emergency? You may need to someday. Could be tomorrow, could happen 10 years from now, you just don't know.

Would I bail out in an emergancy? Yes I believe I am capable to leave the aircraft when in a emergancy situation. Depending on where I got out would depend on what canopy was pulled.

Emergancy situations are different. If I can I want to avoid them but I feel I am prepared to handle them

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Quote

Have you done any "low" hop and pops? Meaning 4 grand or below

Yes I have left the plane below 4 grand with a delay.

Quote

If you like to pull high and the people you are jumping with are okay with it, that's cool. It begs a question about airplane emergencies though. Would you be okay with bailing out of a plane at say 2.5 or 3 grand during a possible emergency? You may need to someday. Could be tomorrow, could happen 10 years from now, you just don't know.

Would I bail out in an emergancy? Yes I believe I am capable to leave the aircraft when in a emergancy situation. Depending on where I got out would depend on what canopy was pulled.

Emergancy situations are different. If I can I want to avoid them but I feel I am prepared to handle them

Serious Topic: If someone hesitates even for a moment it could cost a life. Obtaining an "A" License from the USPA has the clear and pull (hop and pop) progression that takes the jumper down to exiting at 3500' AGL and deploying stable within 5 seconds of exit. The reason for this requirement on the A License Proficiency card is to practice quick exits in emergency situations. In March of 2004 there was an emergency situation from a Beech aircraft at 2,000 feet, one jumper preformed a poised exit and was struck by the horizontal stabilizer of the aircraft resulting in an unconscious skydiver being saved by a Cypress fire. Everyone else in the plane made it out okay all with diving exits. So when practicing low altitude exits simulating an emergency situation a diving exit might make for the best prepared individual.

I encourage every skydiver to be comfortable diving out of an aircraft at a low altitude for this reason. Remember, a hesitation even for a moment could cost a life.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Yes and for those reasons I dive on most of mine, personally my favorite jumps are hop and pops. I know that in the future Ill be more prepared for EP from an aircraft, and it gives me more time undercanopy to practice. Im still to lightly loaded to stall the canpies I jumped but I almost did once. There however all kids of other things I can do that helps me understand my gear more.

When I get my own, I will definitly be working even harder since it will be approx 160 ish size of either a Tri or a pilot, thats a downsize for me, but not a unresonable WL. approx .9 to 1 depending on the canopy and its "actual" sqft

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[skybytch 273]

Quote

Yes, it is. Almost every freefly jump I have ever been on breaks off at 5k due to faster fall-rate. Almost every flat jump I have ever been on breaks no higher than 4k unless is is _exceptionally_ large or involved something out of the norm. ~5 second tracks are the pretty much standard.

For someone with a total of 50ish jumps in her one year in the sport it's not excessive at all. She knows where she is on her personal learning curve. She's set personal limits based on that knowledge and she's not going to push those limits until she's comfortable with doing so. Sounds like someone who values her personal safety to me.

Every tracking dive I've been on breaks at 5000 feet. By your logic we should be taking it much lower since we're falling so much slower.

[Reginald 0]

Why did you ask for people’s opinions if your reaction is to lash out at anyone that disagrees with your predetermined opinion?

People that have a mind set such that they start with a conclusion, look for information to support their predetermined conclusion and ignore all evidence or options to the contrary tend not to fair well in this sport.

You will learn better and faster if you become more open minded. the more you learn the safer you will be, which is your ultimate goal.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[bigbearfng 18]

When I did first did tracking dives with a wrist mount alti only, I'd get nervous, and strain to keep checking the alti on my wrist-of course then I'd go low and get way behind. With a chest mount alti you can glance at it during tracking and then keep your head on a swivel to con't clearing airspace. Just a thought, that may help out the comfort level while tracking....

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

Every tracking dive I've been on breaks at 5000 feet. By your logic we should be taking it much lower since we're falling so much slower.

A tracking dive is completely different then a 4 way RW jump and you know it. Don't try to confuse the issue by throwing some out some red herring, it doesn't lend any validity to your argument. Tracking dives break off high because they are multi-dimensional in nature and aren't falling straight down, not because of their fall rate, and has nothing to do with anything here.

If I was organizing a 4-way RW jump and one of the people expressed a need to depart at 6k I would question their ability to participate in the skydive safely. It shows a lack of confidence in their own abilities that make them a potential danger to others. Everyone needs to be on the same page during a skydive and asking everyone else to make a concession is not a reasonable expectation.

This thread is a classic example of someone fishing for opinions, and when she didn't like what she heard, starting lashing out in all directions.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Yes, it is. Almost every freefly jump I have ever been on breaks off at 5k due to faster fall-rate. Almost every flat jump I have ever been on breaks no higher than 4k unless is is _exceptionally_ large or involved something out of the norm. ~5 second tracks are the pretty much standard. You are splitting hairs again.

4k implies a planned pull at 2500, or maybe 3k if separation needs are glossed over. That's the decision altitude recommended for her, so obviously it's inappropriate. Her wish for 5.5-6 might only be 500ft over 'normal.'

Want to make a group dive more dangerous? Distract one of the participants by insisting on a lower breakoff than they're comfortable with.

Either reorganize, or go with it. Much of the advice here is on par with the classic 'you can handle that smaller canopy, just be careful with it. You don't want to look like a fool with that big boat over your head, do you?'

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

4k implies a planned pull at 2500, or maybe 3k if separation needs are glossed over.

Wrong. I did 150 jumps with my team last year. Break-off was 4k and I was pitching at 3k. 4-way break-off is about obtaining sufficient separation, not about going as far as possible. An efficient track & an appropriate choice of direction means you don't have to spend 1500ft obtaining the separation.

Quote

Want to make a group dive more dangerous? Distract one of the participants by insisting on a lower breakoff than they're comfortable with.

I agree completely.

[HeatherB 0]

A break-off at 4 grand is perfectly reasonable for small groups of experienced RW jumpers.

1000 feet gives you plenty of time to track away and get clear airspace. If you need more than 1000 feet to get away from a small (say 10 or under) group of people, you need to work on your tracking skills.

(I mean "you" in the general sense.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the first to say "4.5 would be nice" if it's a large group. Especially if I don't know a bunch of the people.

[CrazyL 0]

After seeing a jumper spiral in from nearly 500 ft. Having unstowed the brakes well under 1,000ft, one toggle got stuck. 2,3,4 BAM lights out. Since then I like to have full control including brakes unstowed and toggles in hand by 1500 feet. And I am not a newbie.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

1000 feet gives you plenty of time to track away and get clear airspace. If you need more than 1000 feet to get away from a small (say 10 or under) group of people, you need to work on your tracking skills.

(I mean "you" in the general sense.)

I know it's common to use 1000ft for this purpose, and I have on jumps as well. But the SIM suggests 1500 for 5 or fewer, so seems like a reasonable standard to hold an A jumper to.

Last year at Elsinore's Bridge the Gap I requested we do some tracking work. 2 jumps with John Hamilton and one of the Gravity guys and I got a huge boost in the initial acceleration.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

After seeing a jumper spiral in from nearly 500 ft. Having unstowed the brakes well under 1,000ft, one toggle got stuck

I have been talked with by those I know in real life as well about the brakes left in stows. I have no defense over why I do it at this point, wont in the future, but I have never gone below my deck with them stowed.

For every post in here in this thread there have been many PMs and phone education. Those who know me and jump have not even directed attention to where I BO or pull, but rather my leaving my brakes stowed. This is such a good example of being a newbie though. This sport has so much to learn in it. 58 jumps is not enough time to have it down. Why add alot new things to my skydives when I am still fine tuning the survival skills.

Except for those who were insulting without due cause I learned something from both the ones who agree and disagree with my methods. One thing I still have not learned is how people can laugh and insult someone who is trying to be safe and who seeks education on subjects that are a matter of life and death.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[KCJumper 0]

If it makes you more comfortable to look all the time then i say go for it. There are way too many out there who don't look enough. For that person who said this will limit the people who will jump with you. Maybe at your dz this is true but not everywhere.

I jump at a 182 dz and we only go to 10k. So breaking high though i don't like to is necessary for some folks.

Keep up the good altitude awareness. If you retain even half as much awareness you are doing better than most.

Patrick

[catfishhunter 2]

Quote

If it makes you more comfortable to look all the time then i say go for it

Your suggestion would be fine IF She where A) Jumping alone
B) Jumping with a coach

Her orignal question had to do with RW dives with multiple people and "LOCKING" on to Alti until pull time.

The Big Sky theory is just that THEORY. If you track off from an RW dive at 6k and never look up/back/down/sideways after coming out of your track (at 5k) and lock onto your alti until you pull I don't want you in the sky with me. YOU ARE NOT AWARE. Shit happens and inattention (Yes STARING at your altimeter is inattention) will not only kill YOU but usually you take someone else with you.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I think there is a bit of a mis-understanding , when I track I cant see my altimiter, it is not until I have reached where I am going to pull, the only places I look while in a track are down and side vision, but since I have a wrist mount and with how I track there is no way I could track and read alti...

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

Yes and for those reasons I dive on most of mine, personally my favorite jumps are hop and pops.d it gives me more time undercanopy to practice.

If you ususally open at 4500, how high are your hop and pops, that you have more time? I thought a low H/P was like 2500-3500.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Okay I guess I need to expand a bit...

A hop and pop to me is safer in my opinion to pull lower because personally, the only objective is, get out stable, pull stable, land safe. Therefore my mind is more pure then when on working dives.

A working dive has more objectives, and although I am confident with these objectives as I do not jump when I am not confident I am adding others in my experience of my jump. Others who I can not control. Therefore the dives are mentally more complicated and deserve complete focus. Since I can not control how others are on a jump I want to make sure when it is over, I am away from them, and that I take a moment to concentrate on my distence, as well as my air space and body position on opening since opening is when Mals most often occur.

I am a anal retentive perfectionist.... except with spelling and grammar... I know some might think I am excessive and some may not agree, all I can do is recieve education from those I trust, ideas from those I dont know and the willingness to expand. When I started this thread I did not have a open mind, I did not realize there was anything wrong with my tracking thought process, but my mind was open enough to speak with two people who know me and those two people I will seek additional education at the DZ.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[catfishhunter 2]

Quote

Since I can not control how others are on a jump I want to make sure when it is over, I am away from them, and that I take a moment to concentrate on my distence, as well as my air space

And that is what you should be doing instead of what you originaly posted. You said you "LOCK" On to your alti until pull time after you come out of your track. From what you oringally said

Quote

In addition once I track for 5 secs from the formation I stare at my alti till my exact pull time

If you are staring at your Alti then you are NOT doing this

Quote

I want to make sure when it is over, I am away from them, and that I take a moment to concentrate on my distence, as well as my air space

I would suggest getting used to glancing at your alti. to see where the needle is not staring at it. You should know where the numbers are. You learned how to tell time in kindergarten and the clock face has been the same for a very long time so the numbers will be right where they are suppossed to be

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

If I was organizing a 4-way RW jump and one of the people expressed a need to depart at 6k I would question their ability to participate in the skydive safely. It shows a lack of confidence in their own abilities that make them a potential danger to others. Everyone needs to be on the same page during a skydive and asking everyone else to make a concession is not a reasonable expectation.

I wouldn't question the preferred break off altitude of someone with 50 jumps regardless of the size or type of jump they are doing, even if it's much higher than I prefer to break off. Whatever that person feels it takes to make them comfortable with the skydive is what should be done. I'd consider that high break off altitude as an opportunity for me to pull a bit higher than normal and spend some time working canopy control.

See, skydiving isn't a one size fits all sport. We all progress at different rates, we all have different levels of comfort and confidence and we all have our own level of risk tolerance. Or in simpler terms what's right for you may or may not be what's right for someone else; because they choose a higher pull altitude than you did at their experience level does not make you right and them wrong. imho, it shows that the person understands that skydiving is dangerous and they need to do whatever they need to do to keep it safe for them.

She's not expecting others to make a concession. Don't want to break off that high? Don't jump with her. Simple, and she seems to accept and understand that some people won't be willing to jump with her for that reason.

As long as the entire load knows the plan and the exit order is designed with that in mind she is not endangering anyone's safety by breaking off from an RW jump at 6000 feet.

Quote

Much of the advice here is on par with the classic 'you can handle that smaller canopy, just be careful with it. You don't want to look like a fool with that big boat over your head, do you?'

I agree 100%.