I have a question

[labrys 0]

Reading these forums for more than 10 years now... it seems to me that almost every experienced instructor recommends that a new jumper buy used gear. I totally get that

But a lot of those same people point out that "borrowed gear" is a factor in incidents...

So, it makes sense for us to tell a new jumper to buy used gear because it'll retain resale value while they ramp up to a rig that they'll keep for a long time.

Shouldn't we be really telling them to buy a rig that's a good physical fit, even if it's new, because proper fit is safer than "cheaper"?

Owned by Remi #?

[oldwomanc6 60]

Ok, I'll jump in here, 'cause I'm an old fart.

The phrase "borrowed gear, borrowed death" stems from someone using a rig they were unfamiliar with and getting on a load without a second thought as to what the EPs on that rig would be if the SHTF, rather than a sizing issue with the harness, or old(er) gear in general.

The (possible) chain of events leading up to a problem are multiplied when someone is jumping a rig that they gratefully grabbed from a "friend" on the way to the plane.

Obviously, buying appropriate gear is necessary, but foremostly, familiarity with the gear is the answer, not new, matchy-matchy.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Buy whatever you want to buy, man. If you can afford new gear it'll likely fit better and be more comfortable. If you can afford to buy new gear each time you want to downsize, knock yourself out. It's not like that doesn't happen in a vacuum -- you'll get something for your last gear when you sell it anyway. Just make sure to pick vendors with reasonably quick turn-around times if you plan to sell your old gear before buying new. I reckon no matter what you do it'll always be better than renting.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[councilman24 37]

It isn't fit that makes borrowed gear dangerous. It unfamiliarity, little or no practice with the gear, unknown maintenance, unknown flight characteristics. Physical fit of the gear is not a common issue in incidents

I would much rather jump, and have a new jumper, jump a rig that's an okay but not perfect fit every jump than jump unknown rig that fits perfectly. And frankly a perfect fit isn't particularly common. During the year our weight varies, our clothing varies, and the pack volume of the canopies and hence the fit of the rig varies with season and humidity. During my jumping I've owned two made to order custom rigs. The other nine or ten rigs have either been off the shelf new stock or used. But I can count the number of times I've borrowed a rig (including student jumps) on my own fingers. I might have to take off one shoe.

A jumper with their own rig know how it flies both in freefall and under canopy. They know the maintenance is as they like it and know it hasn't changed since the last time they jumped it.

If money is truly no issue then new is fine. Except that it may extend the use of borrowed rigs (rented or free) for several months. Even just buying and then selling a rig to cover that decision and waiting period may be safer. Nobody recommends a newbie buy a used rig that truly doesn't fit. One more reason someone with experience should be consulted. A newbie just bought me a rig to inspect the he got for four hundred dollars. Main turned out to be well used 7 cell F-111 but Dolphin container and reserve were fine and perfectly adequate for the next 200 jumps.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dzswoop717 5]

As an old fart also, I can add that the saying has been around for decades (borrowed gear-borrowed death) Because back then the equipment had several different
methods to achieve each step of deploying and cutting away a canopy. There were Inboardcross pull ripcords,out board ripcords, blast handles, belly band mounted pilot chutes, pullouts, legstrap mounted pilot chutes, and even left hand leg strap mounted pilot chutes. If you walked onto a DZ in the late seventies to early eighties all these deployment systems could possibly be found on a DZ on a regular jump day. There were just as many different cut away systems, capewells, shot and a halfs, R-2's, R-3's, And 3 rings with the pillows in different posistions. If you take into account that all these different systems were mixed togeather in many different combinations you can see how a borrowed rig, back then, could get you in trouble very quickly. Gear is more standardized these days (boc, 3 ring, cut away pillow on right, silver on left) Making it less dangerous to borrow gear now then back then. But in no way am I saying that borrowing gear without first taking time to check out the gear is a good Idea.

[chuckakers 426]

labrys

Reading these forums for more than 10 years now... it seems to me that almost every experienced instructor recommends that a new jumper buy used gear. I totally get that

But a lot of those same people point out that "borrowed gear" is a factor in incidents...

So, it makes sense for us to tell a new jumper to buy used gear because it'll retain resale value while they ramp up to a rig that they'll keep for a long time.

Shouldn't we be really telling them to buy a rig that's a good physical fit, even if it's new, because proper fit is safer than "cheaper"?

New or used, a good fit should be an obvious prerequisite in buying gear. I personally know a talented and competent jumper who almost burned in when she couldn't find her reserve ripcord after a chop on a rig that fit sloppy loose.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[peek 21]

labrys

Reading these forums for more than 10 years now... it seems to me that almost every experienced instructor recommends that a new jumper buy used gear .... Shouldn't we be really telling them to buy a rig that's a good physical fit, even if it's new, because proper fit is safer than "cheaper"?

That is what I do. I recommend used gear as long as they can find something that fits well and has appropriately sized canopies. If they don't find something within their desired time frame, I suggest that they might need to purchase at least the rig new.

[labrys 0]

Quote

That is what I do. I recommend used gear as long as they can find something that fits well and has appropriately sized canopies.

What I didn't ask well is why don't we place more emphasis on fit? I see it here over and over again when someone asks about buying used gear. Almost everyone recommends using an escrow to check over the gear and make sure it's in the advertised condition... I rarely (if ever) see anyone talking seriously about making sure it actually fits properly in the process.

I'm not saying that I think that recommending new gear to beginners is the best option, but I did hope to see some conversation. Maybe the best answer for beginners is buy local used gear under the supervision of a rigger. Or start making sure that proper fit gets more attention when beginners ask here about buying stuff online.

Owned by Remi #?

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

What I didn't ask well is why don't we place more emphasis on fit?

Maybe we should. Why not write an article for publication on here and/or in Parachutist?

[peek 21]

labrys

What I didn't ask well is why don't we place more emphasis on fit?

Maybe it is just being assumed as the first thing to consider, I don't know.

[topdocker 0]

labrys

Quote

That is what I do. I recommend used gear as long as they can find something that fits well and has appropriately sized canopies.

What I didn't ask well is why don't we place more emphasis on fit? I see it here over and over again when someone asks about buying used gear. Almost everyone recommends using an escrow to check over the gear and make sure it's in the advertised condition... I rarely (if ever) see anyone talking seriously about making sure it actually fits properly in the process.

I'm not saying that I think that recommending new gear to beginners is the best option, but I did hope to see some conversation. Maybe the best answer for beginners is buy local used gear under the supervision of a rigger. Or start making sure that proper fit gets more attention when beginners ask here about buying stuff online.

Fit can be modified after purchase for not that much money.

Most sellers state the type of rig, model, size, and their body size and weight which can give the ballpark estimate for the purchaser. Most container manufacturers have size ranges for their containers, not completely custom, so you need to be in the range of the fit, not a perfect fit.

And honestly, after student gear, almost any rig fits better!

top

Jump more, post less!

[chuckakers 426]

Quote

What I didn't ask well is why don't we place more emphasis on fit?

Not sure where you jump, but everywhere I've jumped over the years fit is the first thing we check. Ever watch someone look at a used rig for the first time? What's the first thing they do? Yep, try it on. Too big or long, too short or small and it usually ends the sale right then and there.

Maybe the reason you don't hear much conversation about proper fit is because that's a given.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Remster 30]

Quote

Maybe the reason you don't hear much conversation about proper fit is because that's a given.

That's my take/assumption too.

Remster

[chuckakers 426]

topdocker

***

Quote

That is what I do. I recommend used gear as long as they can find something that fits well and has appropriately sized canopies.

What I didn't ask well is why don't we place more emphasis on fit? I see it here over and over again when someone asks about buying used gear. Almost everyone recommends using an escrow to check over the gear and make sure it's in the advertised condition... I rarely (if ever) see anyone talking seriously about making sure it actually fits properly in the process.

I'm not saying that I think that recommending new gear to beginners is the best option, but I did hope to see some conversation. Maybe the best answer for beginners is buy local used gear under the supervision of a rigger. Or start making sure that proper fit gets more attention when beginners ask here about buying stuff online.

Fit can be modified after purchase for not that much money.

Most sellers state the type of rig, model, size, and their body size and weight which can give the ballpark estimate for the purchaser. Most container manufacturers have size ranges for their containers, not completely custom, so you need to be in the range of the fit, not a perfect fit.

And honestly, after student gear, almost any rig fits better!

top

Top makes a good point. The vast majority of the time a simple height, weight, body style comparison to the current user can let you know if a rig is even close in fit. If it is but still needs modified, it isn't too pricy to have most mods performed. I have known several jumpers that really liked a rig or the deal they could get and decided it was worth a few hundred bucks to have it re-sized.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[erdnarob 1]

On another thread in this forum I was warning people about borrowing a rig.

Here is a excerpt of the post :

««««Especially for people jumping in cold countries during the Winter or any time, beware of the combination of your handle and gloves, it can be deadly. I have investigated a case where the jumper died while using a borrowed rig equiped with a very tin and flat freefly handle with gloves. He was used to jump with his gloves, used to jump with hackey like the two precedent jumps he made just before the fatal one, but maybe he wasn't used with the combination he had on his third jump that day. Unfortunately for him, in a hurry, he had forgotten to turn on his AAD.
»»»»»»

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[labrys 0]

Top and Chuck make excellent points, but how much of this does a newb buying gear actually know? I learned at a DZ with tons of people helping me make choices and vet gear. Not everyone has that advantage. More and more people are buying gear because it fit someone who was 5'10 and 170 pounds instead of understanding that 2 people can be the same height and weight and have vastly different torso / leg ratios.

Sure, the harness dimensions are given in an up front sale, but is anyone asking the buying to grab a measuring tape before they buy?

In Incidents it's common to ask about wing loading. Not so common to ask if the rig *fit*

Was that unexplained "low reserve deployment" because someone's reserve handle was under their chin because the MLW was too long?

Owned by Remi #?

[chuckakers 426]

labrys

Top and Chuck make excellent points, but how much of this does a newb buying gear actually know?

Obviously not much, but noobs jump at drop zones and drop zones have instructors & DZO's for them to lean on for guidance.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dthames 0]

chuckakers

***Top and Chuck make excellent points, but how much of this does a newb buying gear actually know?

Obviously not much, but noobs jump at drop zones and drop zones have instructors & DZO's for them to lean on for guidance.

I bought my rig when I had 20 jumps and after jumping student gear at more than one DZ, no one had to tell me I wanted a rig that fit.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[labrys 0]

Quote

I bought my rig when I had 20 jumps and after jumping student gear at more than one DZ, no one had to tell me I wanted a rig that fit.

Good for you. Have you ever seen anyone *else* wearing poorly fitting gear? I have.

Owned by Remi #?

[Kat4821 0]

So what do most of you recommend for someone who is rather tall (6'4'' +) and the majority of the classifieds are for people between 5'5'' - 5'1''?

I am 6'4'' and searched, and searched for used gear. The entire time I was saving more and more money. When I realized the searches were running dry, I just bought a new custom fit rig, obviously with the help, guidance and wisdom of my coach. It was pricey but it was a decision that I thought would be the best in the long run.

[labrys 0]

Quote

I am 6'4'' and searched, and searched for used gear. The entire time I was saving more and more money. When I realized the searches were running dry, I just bought a new custom fit rig, obviously with the help, guidance and wisdom of my coach. It was pricey but it was a decision that I thought would be the best in the long run.

I think that you did the right thing

Owned by Remi #?

[DrDom 0]

We seem to have a problem of discerning "Borrowed Gear" and "Used Gear".

Borrowed usually implies that it is a short term use of unfamiliar equipment with no intent of purchase or long term use. Used gear implies the purchase of gear that will become one's primary sporting equipment.

People "go in on borrowed gear" because of unfamiliarity coupled with potentially mis-sized/poorly fit, and possibly other problems. There are just more variables. Used gear, if inspected, should be fine if it fits, is appropriate, etc. Training and familiarity go a long way.

I asked once about buying new gear (cost is not an issue) versus used and someone pointed out that there were people jumping gear made 1-2 decades ago (not the canopies of course) with no issues.

I mean, one of the planes I fly is a 1942 Piper Cub. Its still in good shape. Looks old but flies fine. I feel like with a good and meticulous rigger the gear itself is "close to new", and much like a new car, someone else worked out the bugs for ya :p

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I asked once about buying new gear (cost is not an issue) versus used and someone pointed out that there were people jumping gear made 1-2 decades ago (not the canopies of course) with no issues.

I'd gladly jump 20 year old gear in serviceable condition (and a standardized configuration) for a non-freefly jump. But newer jumpers should know that some 20 year old gear isn't freefly-friendly.

[NWFlyer 2]

DrDom

I asked once about buying new gear (cost is not an issue) versus used and someone pointed out that there were people jumping gear made 1-2 decades ago (not the canopies of course) with no issues.

Why do you say "not the canopies"? My boyfriend is a huge fan of "closet queen" Sabres, especially for wingsuiting. People have mixed opinions on the original Sabre, but for those who love 'em, they can't get enough of them, and a ZP canopy well-maintained, something from the 90s is perfectly jumpable. There's other canopies that are still being made today - if you found one from the 90s in good shape - why wouldn't you jump it vs. one that was manufactured more recently. Same canopy same design, though (horrors) you might have to deal with the colors that were trendy back then (news flash, though - neon may be ugly, but it makes you really awesomely visible in the air!).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[labrys 0]

Quote

We seem to have a problem of discerning "Borrowed Gear" and "Used Gear".

"we"?

Please explain the difference to "us" between jumping borrowed gear for a weekend and jumping new or used gear for the first time on a weekend.

Owned by Remi #?