Florida mandates teaching that slavery had benefits to blacks

[JoeWeber 2,941]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

You mean like skydiving and flying in questionable aircraft?

If you like, OK by me, but I think most of us here would agree there is a definable reward doing so. Unlike driving the wrong way down streets to prove it can be done, for example.

[jakee 1,596]

7 hours ago, winsor said:

I apologize for expressing exasperation over being expected to defend positions I don't support.  If nothing else, it's pointless.

Right, you make one little post saying a lynching victim was responsible for his own death, claim that it’s simplistic to view Till’s death as just a racist murder, and say that the response to the brutal murder of a black man by white men for being black should have been for the black  community to forswear racist violence… and all of a sudden people think you said something bad! I sympathise with your frustration.  

[JoeWeber 2,941]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Right, you make one little post saying a lynching victim was responsible for his own death, claim that it’s simplistic to view Till’s death as just a racist murder, and say that the response to the brutal murder of a black man by white men for being black should have been for the black  community to forswear racist violence… and all of a sudden people think you said something bad! I sympathise with your frustration.  

You are without any doubt the most triggerable poster here, against stiff competition too. Do you really in the shallow depths of your imagination believe Winsor was saluting the outcome? 

[jakee 1,596]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You are without any doubt the most triggerable poster here, against stiff competition too. Do you really in the shallow depths of your imagination believe Winsor was saluting the outcome? 

Coming from the undisputed king of the petty grudge I’ll take that with a pinch of salt. I also flatly did not say that he saluted the outcome, so maybe give your own fevered imagination a break before you trigger yourself again.
 

However, Winsor has a long history of racist statements and attitudes on this site. Heck, given that he claims only racists focus on race, pretty much the only thing he ever posts about is race relations. And everything in my post stands. He did say Till was responsible for his own death. He did say it was simplistic to view it otherwise. He did say that the response should have been for the black community to forswear racist violence. Since you failed to specify, which bit of that do you think I got wrong?

And personally, given his history, I absolutely do believe the message of that first post far more than the ‘woe is me I’m so misunderstood’ denials of what he very clearly did say.

[gowlerk 2,277]

5 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Do you really in the shallow depths of your imagination believe Winsor was saluting the outcome? 

Given his pretty obvious intelligence it is hard to believe he did not understand the level of victim blaming he was engaging in. What motivates Winsor and what are his core beliefs? None of us can really say but all of us can read his words. He is not a misunderstood child.

[kallend 2,150]

Emmett Till was 14.   Nothing Till did was illegal.  His killers, however, got away with murder.  Totally inappropriate to blame the victim.

Who here as a teenager didn't show poor judgment at times?  Probably frequently.  It's a feature of the teenage years.  No one posting here was beaten to death for it.

 

[gowlerk 2,277]

22 minutes ago, kallend said:

Emmett Till was 14.   Nothing Till did was illegal.  His killers, however, got away with murder.  Totally inappropriate to blame the victim.

Who here as a teenager didn't show poor judgment at times?  Probably frequently.  It's a feature of the teenage years.  No one posting here was beaten to death for it.

 

Not that it really matters but the woman who accused him of whistling at her and calling her "baby" admitted years later that she made the whole thing up.

[Phil1111 1,183]

32 minutes ago, kallend said:

Emmett Till was 14.   Nothing Till did was illegal.  His killers, however, got away with murder.  Totally inappropriate to blame the victim.

Who here as a teenager didn't show poor judgment at times?  Probably frequently.  It's a feature of the teenage years.  No one posting here was beaten to death for it.

 

 

8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Not that it really matters but the woman who accused him of whistling at her and calling her "baby" admitted years later that she made the whole thing up.

DeSantis will be along shortly to put this in a whole new light. To clear the minds of evangelicals and let the outright racists know that the jury got it right. As whites in the south always do.

"DeSantis’ education department released a statement late last week highlighting 16 examples of “some slaves” who “developed highly specialized trades from which they benefitted.”

But as the Tampa Bay Times and others noted, “Nearly half the figures highlighted by the state were never enslaved” and several of those who were “did not gain their skills from their servitude.”

Teachers in Florida's dept of racism and re-education. Grooming themselves for future employment at FOX.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Given his pretty obvious intelligence it is hard to believe he did not understand the level of victim blaming he was engaging in. What motivates Winsor and what are his core beliefs? None of us can really say but all of us can read his words. He is not a misunderstood child.

I didn't take it as victim blaming but rather that he was pointing out that there are some streets you don't walk no matter your sense of belonging. That truth should resonate with anyone who has traveled to hard places. No way does that mean that any harm that results is deserved.

[gowlerk 2,277]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

I didn't take it as victim blaming but rather that he was pointing out that there are some streets you don't walk no matter your sense of belonging. That truth should resonate with anyone who has traveled to hard places. No way does that mean that any harm that results is deserved.

I believe the term he used was suicide. If someone commits suicide is it not their fault?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Do you really in the shallow depths of your imagination believe Winsor was saluting the outcome? 

Saluting no. But Winsor has shown himself, based on his posts here, to be a very typical old white man.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

I believe the term he used was suicide. If someone commits suicide is it not their fault?

If you choose to read it that way, I suppose. Some might argue that jumping with only two parachutes is akin to suicide. In Winsor's present testimony I tend to regard the usage as being somewhere between literary license and a poor choice of words. Now maybe he is a callous, victim blaming, asshat who took pleasure in thinking that a decent kid was viciously murdered by mentally impaired mongrels I just didn't take it that way.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I didn't take it as victim blaming but rather that he was pointing out that there are some streets you don't walk no matter your sense of belonging. That truth should resonate with anyone who has traveled to hard places. No way does that mean that any harm that results is deserved.

If your takeaway from a 14 year young black boy being abducted, tortured and murdered for offending a white girl, is that the black kid shouldn't have dared look at the white girl.....you are a racist under the very shallow depths of my imagination.

 

[gowlerk 2,277]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

Now maybe he is a callous, victim blaming, asshat who took pleasure in thinking that a decent kid was viciously murdered by mentally impaired mongrels I just didn't take it that way.

Sometimes you are a generous man. Mostly when it costs you nothing I suppose.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

If your takeaway from a 14 year young black boy being abducted, tortured and murdered for offending a white girl, is that the black kid shouldn't have dared look at the white girl.....you are a racist under the very shallow depths of my imagination.

 

Indeed, and that was exactly what I conveyed. You nailed it.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I have a teenage daughter and I frequently have conversations with her about how she presents herself has an impact on how others might behave towards her.

That doesn't mean that if a girl is raped and somebody says: well she shouldn't have worn that skirt, that person isn't a fucking idiot. 

 

[olofscience 492]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If you choose to read it that way, I suppose. Some might argue that jumping with only two parachutes is akin to suicide.

There's a difference when your death is caused by a human, vs an accident (no matter how high the accident rate is).

Being killed by a racist human, vs being killed by a rock face in BASE jumping implies that the racist human can't control their actions and is therefore not at fault.

Edited July 26, 2023 by olofscience
grammar

[winsor 236]

30 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I have a teenage daughter and I frequently have conversations with her about how she presents herself has an impact on how others might behave towards her.

That doesn't mean that if a girl is raped and somebody says: well she shouldn't have worn that skirt, that person isn't a fucking idiot. 

I contend that being in a different environment can have different rules, and one should heed warnings regarding these differences.  Going to Alaska, one should understand that the fauna there are not Walt Disney creations and you're not in suburbia.

Perhaps it should have been made crystal clear to Emmett Till that the white people that lived near his cousins were vicious, murdering morons, and that they should be treated like the rabid assholes that they were.  Unfortunately, the warnings he got didn't convey quite how dangerous these people were.

Lara Logan getting gang raped while covering a demonstration in Cairo is an example of how simply being there put her in danger, and failing to make herself look massively unattractive was enough to trigger the attack.  Or something like that, I don't understand rapists or murderers - maybe a donkey would have faced the same risks

You'd go further in your disagreement with one point or another if you didn't go right to ad hominem.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[SkyDekker 1,465]

6 minutes ago, winsor said:

I contend that being in a different environment can have different rules, and one should heed warnings regarding these differences.  Going to Alaska, one should understand that the fauna there are not Walt Disney creations and you're not in suburbia.

Perhaps it should have been made crystal clear to Emmett Till that the white people that lived near his cousins were vicious, murdering morons, and that they should be treated like the rabid assholes that they were.  Unfortunately, the warnings he got didn't convey quite how dangerous these people were.

Lara Logan getting gang raped while covering a demonstration in Cairo is an example of how simply being there put her in danger, and failing to make herself look massively unattractive was enough to trigger the attack.  Or something like that, I don't understand rapists or murderers - maybe a donkey would have faced the same risks

You'd go further in your disagreement with one point or another if you didn't go right to ad hominem.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

Those points are only relevant when you are trying to discuss prevention and just shrug your shoulders at cause.

The cause for Till's murder is racism, racism that led to unrelenting hatred for a human being of a different colour.

The cause for Logan's rape is men not being able to control themselves.

If 50 years after Till's murder your comment is well if only the kid hadn't looked at the white girl and listened to his mother....at minimum you have a problem understanding the issue.

The key giveaway in all of this is, and I paraphrase: "meh I don't understand rapists and racists murderers, so I can't really say anything about them, but the victim really could have done better."

Edited July 26, 2023 by SkyDekker

[jakee 1,596]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

If you choose to read it that way, I suppose. Some might argue that jumping with only two parachutes is akin to suicide. In Winsor's present testimony I tend to regard the usage as being somewhere between literary license and a poor choice of words. Now maybe he is a callous, victim blaming, asshat who took pleasure in thinking that a decent kid was viciously murdered by mentally impaired mongrels I just didn't take it that way.

No one took it that way. You're just imagining things as an excuse to get worked up. I don't think Winsor takes pleasure in thinking about Till being murdered. I do think there's a good chance he simply doesn't care.

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I didn't take it as victim blaming but rather that he was pointing out that there are some streets you don't walk no matter your sense of belonging. 

He said he committed suicide. It takes some serious sophistry to get around that.

In doing so, he also takes as gospel the claims that Till acted in a way that brought it on himself. The sources for that are 1) Claims from one of Till's relatives (in an interview with a journalist who paid for stories) who later recanted and apologised, and 2) The racist murderers themselves. So.... yeah. Not quite as simplistic as he makes out, in his insistence that Till's murder was Till's fault.

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

17 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you like, OK by me, but I think most of us here would agree there is a definable reward doing so. Unlike driving the wrong way down streets to prove it can be done, for example.

Hi Joe,

Now wait just a minute.  I've done that twice in downtown Portland & I can prove it can be done without accident or injury.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Both times were concentrating on something other than where I was going.  

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you choose to read it that way, I suppose. Some might argue that jumping with only two parachutes is akin to suicide. In Winsor's present testimony I tend to regard the usage as being somewhere between literary license and a poor choice of words. Now maybe he is a callous, victim blaming, asshat who took pleasure in thinking that a decent kid was viciously murdered by mentally impaired mongrels I just didn't take it that way.

Hi Joe,

When, in 1964, I went out to make my first jump, I was dumbfounded to find out that they wore two parachutes.

Who wudda thought?

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 3,119]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Some might argue that jumping with only two parachutes is akin to suicide.

In 2011, we had a player-coach 4 way team with Pat McGowan.  During a jump, David Stasky started a high performance turn and ran into Pat, killing him.

If someone had then suggested that McGowan committed suicide - it would be similar to suggesting that Emmett Till did the same.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

In 2011, we had a player-coach 4 way team with Pat McGowan.  During a jump, David Stasky started a high performance turn and ran into Pat, killing him.

If someone had then suggested that McGowan committed suicide - it would be similar to suggesting that Emmett Till did the same.

No disagreement. Maybe had Winsor the prescience of knowing how his artless analogy would be received here he'd have chosen a different set of words. Besides, wasn't it you who a couple years back introduced some of us to Winsor as being one of the least politically correct people on offer? 

[billvon 3,119]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

No disagreement. Maybe had Winsor the prescience of knowing how his artless analogy would be received here he'd have chosen a different set of words. Besides, wasn't it you who a couple years back introduced some of us to Winsor as being one of the least politically correct people on offer? 

Oh definitely.  And back in the day (the rec.skydiving days) Winsor posted both some thought-provoking and some brain dead material.  Overall very worth reading.  But the best part of his posts were his mea culpas.  His apologies for his misstatements and mistakes were true works of art, indicating both the ability to not take himself too seriously and the realization that perhaps he sometimes actually made mistakes.

Sorry to see that Winsor go.  The new one is never in doubt.