Hook turning tandems

[aironscott 3]

What, are you new at this? You sure are typing like you are.
I don't know anyone who front risers a tandem landing. Lots of us have tried and its just too hard. You know this. And its a poor example of what your point may be.
My object for this conversation is that Many of us TI's can and will utilize techniques that are available to us given our skill and competency level.
I don't disrespect other experienced TIs that do things different than I do even if I think it's wrong. If you have the experience and the knwoledge.....do what you are going to do. Heck, I may learn something from you. But don't tell me what I can't do. I've paid my dues and I can use any landing technique that I please. But here again it comes down to experience.
I will tell a relatively inexperienced tandem I to not hook even when I do it right in front of them. But once said tandem I has a 1000 or more tandem jumps I'll just help them out. By that time they have also paid their dues.
Back to the topic (and I apologise for my digression) I feel that I am much safer landing a modern tandem canopy with the extra speed via hook or stall surge, than a straight in landing. These parachutes are not designed for a novice user. There is a reason that USPA requires us to have 3 years in the sport and 500 jumps. (which, in my opinion is too low) But the point is that you have to know how to fly already. And so do you. Tandem Instructors should not be skydivers needing to attend a canopy control course.
Denny Crane

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[billvon 3,107]

>What, are you new at this?

Calm down there. No one is attacking you.

>My object for this conversation is that Many of us TI's can and will
>utilize techniques that are available to us given our skill and
>competency level.

I agree, to some extent. That speaks to the original question of whether it's moral/sensible etc to toggle hook a tandem.

>I don't disrespect other experienced TIs that do things different than
>I do even if I think it's wrong.

Nor do I. Hooking or doing a surge landing is an added risk, but for some TM's it may not be a very large added risk.

>But the point is that you have to know how to fly already. And so do
>you.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind! In turn I would suggest that you can land a tandem canopy straight in with no problems at all. (At least, I can.)

[stratostar 5]

Toggle whipping in any context is the hallmark of an idiot.(quote)

This is who I'm talking about!

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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Toggle whipping in any context is the hallmark of an idiot.(quote)

This is who I'm talking about!

Thats fine, mayeb restate your objection then from, "Don't hook tandems", to , "Why do all you retards think that a tandem rating makes you a good canopy pilot? You can barely land your 150 whatever straigh in, and you think that because a certificate says you are an instructor that you immediately have skills? Catch on and understand that you need to be albe to fly our sport canopy at 99% of it's potential and have at least 500 jumps on the tandem canopy you are jumping before flying it anyway besides like a student, which you in the case of tandems, you still are".

Whats interesting, is that I see the same thing with camera flyers. A new camera guy will ask me for tips on doing a head down exit with tandems, and my usual response is, "Can you do a head down exit without a tandem?". Many of them simply walk away without answering the question.

Maybe it's the tandem rigs. Maybe jumping with or near them makes people think they can do things they can't. Somebody call Bill Booth, he'll know whats going on....

[aironscott 3]

But Billvon-
What is being suggested here is that I should land straight in tandem landings because they are someway, in someone's opinion, safer. And that's just a bunch of crap. What I do well may not work for someone else. And just cuz someone thinks that they are are authority on the subject does not mean they've walked a mile in my shoes. And anyone who would like to tell me how to tandems can FUCK right off. That's harsh but that's how I feel. People that I work with that have experience that I don't have, i tend to listen to. And there is alwayse some more experienced at the dz. I've only done a few thousand tandems but I do not think that it makes me an authority on the subject. But it does tell me that I've done a few thousanf tandems. And lots of people that I work with have done thousands of tandems as well. So its not my first day.Nor will tomorow be.
Denny Crane

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[billvon 3,107]

>What is being suggested here is that I should land straight in
>tandem landings because they are someway, in someone's opinion,
>safer.

Some people are saying that, but I'm not. That's why I asked a question instead of saying "you're wrong."

Tandems can be safely landed straight in; they can generally be landed safely with a surge landing or a hook. Whether such landings are safe _enough_ is up to the DZO, the chief instructor and the tandem master.

[aironscott 3]

Bill-
I'm am not trying to get in a pissing match with you. I've done this a few times and my guess is that you have as well. What i am saying is that I can do tandems however the hell I want. And so can any other TM/I with over 1000 tandem jumps. Please don't tell me not to hook it in.I usually don't anyway. But sometimes its my best option. AND I am the best resource for the conditions of the day. No offense but you are not. Not today nor tomorrow. If you would like to walk a mile in my shoes the invitation is extended.
Or you can call me
720-840-1189

P.S. I just read my post and it sounds fairly offensive. I didn't mean it that way. But I hope you learn something from my typed words. If not there is still time

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[stratostar 5]

So far this has been a good excange of Ideas and different points of views, I would like to thank everyone who has put in their 2 cents, and voted.

I know not everyone here agrees with my point of view on this issue. (and many others)
I didn't expect that everyone would agree!
I just wanted to hear what everyone thought about this,
it has been a interesting topic to discuss.
Again THANK YOU ALL for your input.Spring is coming soon, stay safe out there.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[juggalo 1]

Again who are you?? I do not see any one with C-55555 listed in USPA
FESS up and let us know who you really are
you post a lot
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[YISkyDive 0]

how does my lisence #, jump number, home DZ, canopy, or, yes, name, change what I have to say- even if I do post a bunch.

my opinions are just merely that, opinions.

dont respect 'em if you dont like em, thats fine and sure as hell wouldnt be a first

[aironscott 3]

Toggle whipping and toggle turning are two very different things. Anyone worth their salt knows the difference. If you don't Please go somewhere else. If you come to my DZ I will indeed try to educate you properly. If you don't get it you won't be here long. I luv charles darwin
I don't like Strongs, Racers, Sets or any else of the stupid old shit for a reason. Cuz they suck. If you bring some of that stupid shit to my DZ you will be encouraged to go down the road. Technology is good.
Why are we not all jumping Icirus or sigma or A2's. If youare not, you are not affording your students the best that we have to offer. Do you want to take that to court? I can

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[darnknit 0]

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Toggle whipping and toggle turning are two very different things. Anyone worth their salt knows the difference.

so you agree that toggle whipping is a bad idea?

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I don't like Strongs, Racers, Sets or any else of the stupid old shit for a reason. Cuz they suck.

when did this become about gear selection?

blue stuff,
p.j.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[kruse 0]

Please....teach me more.

[kruse 0]

accually Aron,
I was simply trying to spark a discussion on the dangers of toogle whipping. What do you think...did it work?
By the way...my tummy still hurts where you kicked me.

[livendive 8]

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I would like to know how many TM's think it is ok to hook turn a tandem?

First I'll have to ask what constitutes hook turning a tandem. I've yet to see anyone front riser turn a tandem to final, nor anyone doing 360s or 270s. I might have seen one or two 180s that were much slower than I'd consider "hooks". So are we talking about 90 degree turns? More? Less?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Deuce 1]

There's a whole lot of people talking about "court" and suing and stuff in this thread. "I could prove it to a jury in court" and all that.

First: Most first time tandem students/passengers regard the tandem skydive with about as much comprehension of risk as if they were going on the newest fastest roller coaster. We shoud do a poll about how many students ask us "Is this really dangerous?" or something similar. They don't really realize that they are completely putting their life in my hands. They compartmentalize all that because they really want to go skydiving.

Second: At what altitude does a 90 degree toggle turn become a "hook" turn? At what altitude does the release from hanging in brakes become a "surge" landing?

The problem with learning both those techniques is that you aren't climbing that learning curve alone, you've got someone along for the ride.

[AggieDave 6]

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Second: At what altitude does a 90 degree toggle turn become a "hook" turn? At what altitude does the release from hanging in brakes become a "surge" landing?

I would argue, not what altitude, but what what altitude and what level of turn? A gentle carving 90deg turn is a hook turn? Or a turn in which even a whuffo goes "whoa!" when seeing the turn?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[livendive 8]

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Second: At what altitude does a 90 degree toggle turn become a "hook" turn? At what altitude does the release from hanging in brakes become a "surge" landing?

The problem with learning both those techniques is that you aren't climbing that learning curve alone, you've got someone along for the ride.

Have you ever sashayed or gone into brakes to shoot accuracy on your camera? If in that process, you learn that in some instances landings are better with the speed produced by a smooth 15, 30, 45, 60, or maybe even 90 degree turn, don't you kind of owe it to the person along for the ride to give yourselves that speed and the resulting better landing?

If what we're talking about here is smooth toggle turns to final, not hookturning or toggle whipping as I understand the terms, then I don't see a problem with it, at least not if approached properly (in baby steps). Then again I haven't been around the block as many times as many here. I haven't seen a smooth toggle turn result in a bad tandem landing. By comparison, I've seen plenty of straight-in, unbraked approaches that made me wince on watching contact with terra firma, especially those instances that resulted in multiple points of contact.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[peek 21]

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I would like to know how many TM's think it is ok to hook turn a tandem?

I guess that's something that TM's do, but Tandem Instructors are too busy teaching their Tandem students (first jump or otherwise) conservative canopy control in preparation for their solo jumps to consider hook turns.

Coordinating arm motions between instructor and student during steering and flaring is challenging enough without adding the more critical timing of hook turn control.

[billvon 3,107]

>At what altitude does a 90 degree toggle turn become a "hook" turn? At
> what altitude does the release from hanging in brakes become a "surge"
>landing?

When either is done such that the flare occurs at a higher than straight-in speed.

[divnswoop 0]

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>At what altitude does a 90 degree toggle turn become a "hook" turn? At
> what altitude does the release from hanging in brakes become a "surge"
>landing?

When either is done such that the flare occurs at a higher than straight-in speed.

Then they are in the corner.....no?

[billvon 3,107]

>Then they are in the corner.....no?

?? People do hook turns or surge landings to get more speed for landing. Otherwise they would be sorta pointless. I don't think they are all 'in the corner.' For me, being 'in the corner' means starting a manuever that requires a heroic recovery to land safely (or a manuever where even a heroic effort won't save you.)

[juggalo 1]

you can read my answers in the general forum

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[wrightskyguy 1]

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I'm guessing for most tandems it is a first jump, and wonder how many of them can actually properly understand the risks?

*** Excactly right! No first jumper can really understand the extra risk , no matter how much you brief them. A couple of years ago, some bonehead posted here about what a great so and so this tandem I was because he swooped another jumpers cutaway main, saving it from getting wet in a lake. Got some of the same kind of responses. That being said, I know several TI's that are perfectly capable of safely doing moderately aggressive turns on landing. I don't think any of them actually do "hook turns".

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[Liemberg 0]

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Jeez, unless the passenger is actually shown videos of the difference between the types of landings and has the details explained to them, I really don't buy this argument.

Well then explain why one of my TI's ALWAYS explains to those passengers who saw him land with his own 'pocket rocket' that the landing on the tandemparachute will be quite different from what they just witnessed and the passenger after that explanation ALWAYS sighs in relief?

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...