linestretch 0 #26 February 20, 2006 You should have put in the category of "only with qualified pilots". I've done a lot of them and think if done correctly, they are safe, and the quality of the landings (especially in high winds) goes up a LOT. Riding the elevator straight down...maybe even backwards in high winds suck ass. I'm sure there are a lot out there that will agree...and of course the nay sayers.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #27 February 20, 2006 After reading all the previous posts it appears we are looking at 2 different equations here 1.) the TI who hooks it in for the sake of hooking it and 2.) the TI who hooks it in because the wind conditions demand it on the day. Personally l wouldn't risk my life with no 1.) and don't beleive there is place for it with paying passengers - we all know how quickly things can turn to custard close to the ground. As for no 2.) yes if its the safer option then obviously it can also be argued in a court of law that it was the safer option if it turns to shit ! Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #28 February 20, 2006 QuoteI've done a lot of them and think if done correctly, they are safe, and the quality of the landings (especially in high winds) goes up a LOT.Riding the elevator straight down...maybe even backwards in high winds suck ass. Does it jusitfy you to jump under unacceptable wind conditions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #29 February 20, 2006 QuoteI'm pretty sure I can prove to a jury and judge that hooking a tandem is NOT an industry standard is thought to be wreckless and unacceptable pratice. I know this is somewhat nitpicky, and perhaps not the place, but that's a pet peeve of mine. It's spelled reckness. Being wreckless is a good thing, being reckless is not. Anyway, I'm not a TI, but I would agree that with first-time tandem students, a hook WHEN NEEDED probably isn't a big deal. With DZs that require more than 1 tandem for whatever reason, and people are slightly more aware of the risks, a hook might be ok WITH WRITTEN PERMISSION. People today are litigious and cannot be trusted. Getting a signature that they understand and accept the higher risk of an unneeded hook might add potential paperwork, but if they don't sign that part, don't hook it?cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #30 February 20, 2006 QuoteQuote I'm guessing for most tandems it is a first jump, and wonder how many of them can actually properly understand the risks? I guess it was the stack of papers requiring my signiture and initials, signing my life away, and then getting a video record of me signing my life away,.. I pretty much new that there was a very high risk in the sport. but the person should defidently be aware of the TM's intentions. So you fully understood that the risks would be different on a normal landing vs a hook turn? All you signed were papers saying "i know i could die". Was there anything explaining all the different variables and scenarios in which you could die, to help you understand that properly in detail? We all signed all sorts of things, but the bottom line is you don't know jack shit until you've been up there yourself. Simplest way to show this: ask any whuffo, or someone who's signed those papers but not jumped yet, how you are most likely to die or injure yourself skydiving, and I guarantee the answer will be "the parachute doesn't open" (no matter what they signed). Ask anyone who's been in the sport a while the same question and your answer is.... Jeez, unless the passenger is actually shown videos of the difference between the types of landings and has the details explained to them, I really don't buy this argument.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #31 February 20, 2006 I don't think it is as bad due to the fact that your not swinging out from under the canopy like on a hook. Some are saying if the winds for the day call for it, I think it might be a good idea not to be jump in those winds if it's that bad. ie if your backing up, it's to windy. But I do know dzo's who pressure TM's to go cuz they want the money. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #32 February 20, 2006 QuoteI think if the passenger understands and accepts the risks, then it's perfectly acceptable. Hell,,there are alot of folks out there with thousands of jumps and they don't understand the risks...smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #33 February 20, 2006 I don't think you give people enough credit for being able to undersand. It's not difficult to understand the dangers inherent in high-performance landings with some simple explanation. I think most people of average intelligence can grasp the concepts. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #34 February 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteI've done a lot of them and think if done correctly, they are safe, and the quality of the landings (especially in high winds) goes up a LOT.Riding the elevator straight down...maybe even backwards in high winds suck ass. Does it jusitfy you to jump under unacceptable wind conditions? what is unnacceptable? When you go somewhere for a 6 month contract job, you are expected to work in windy conditions....that's why they don't hire your average weekend TI. I'm not advocating them, but will say they worked great for me, and wish I could still do them here.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #35 February 20, 2006 One more thing: I know some TIs who hook it and I would have no problems having my loved ones being passengers. I know some Tis who never hook it and I would fear having my loved ones being passengers. Again you are not factoring in experience/skills.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juggalo 1 #36 February 20, 2006 I’ve read thru a lot of the posts on this topic and I have some questions and MY OPINIONS TO share. Why do TM’s do hook turns? To gain speed to obtain a good landing is what I’m reading here. Why? With the newer canopies the speed should be there. I have seen TM’s hook because the combined weight was too great to do a normal landing. ie pattern for the day, into the wind. If you were TEACHING students I would not be hooking them as part of first or second jump training. If you are not teaching then I don’t consider you an Instructor just a carnival worker. (my opinion) If you are using older canopies fly and load them appropriately and you will have good landings with out hook turns. If turbulence is a big problem maybe jumping should be halted for the day. We don’t let students jump when conditions are unfavorable why put tandems in the air? I’ve seen tandems go up in really high winds and it still amazes me that people will take that risk for a few bucks. Again students are grounded for high winds why jump tandem? I see a lot of tandems slide in when conditions are not best for a stand up which I think is ok, although a lot of TM’s don’t think this is “cool” as a hook and land, but its probably safer (my opinion) FYI I am a T/IE and I’ve been doing tandems since the mid 1980’s. I’ve jumped most of the gear out there from 360 Vector highlighters to Sigma’s and a lot of other canopies in between. In 900+ tandems I have one injury (my mother in-law) it was my fault on a sliding landing. I let her foot get behind and under me. During my career I’ve done tandems in many regions and conditions across the country and Mexico. The one I did hook the DZO in Chicago chewed me out. I also believe that if we train tandems as first jump students we all would have more repeat business rather than treating them as a fun ride like an amusement park. Nuff said bring on the gnashing of the teeth and etc. brewwaving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #37 February 20, 2006 QuoteI don't think you give people enough credit for being able to undersand. It's not difficult to understand the dangers inherent in high-performance landings with some simple explanation. I think most people of average intelligence can grasp the concepts. linz with all due respect, I think people who have been in this sport even a very short time (like me) forget what they didn't know before they started jumping. i still think it's difficult to really make someone understand if they haven't even ever experienced a normal landing. how many tandem passengers (remember for a lot of them this is just a fun ride not a step to learning) do you think really understand how a parachute flies and flares? heck... as someone said above, there are regular jumpers who don't always understand these things...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #38 February 20, 2006 You don't have to really understand the aerodynamics of a parachute to see what happens to a person when he screws up a high performance landing. A simple video or two would suffice to aid a person's understanding I'd imagine. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #39 February 20, 2006 TM: Are you excited for your skydive today? Student: Yes, I am. TM: We are gonna do a high performance landing today, do you mind? It adds some risk to our landing, but it is a lot more fun, enjoyable, and exciting. Are you ok with it? Student: Have done it before? TM: Yah, many times. Student: OK. Next think you know a student has a broken leg/ femur, and the instructor is getting a law suit on his hands for gross negligence, as well as the DZO, canopy manufacturer, and tandem rig manufacturer for a long list of legal garabage just because someone wants to make money and doesnt understand people make mistakes. In that little clip- I dont see one mention of a femur, or what problems hitting the ground in a turn demonstrates, or even one notion that you can do everything right and still get hurt with high performace landings. This things are all true on smaller sport rigs, and im sure they dont change with a tandem parachute over your head. No, I truley dont think we can teach a customer going for a thrill ride what the risks of swooping are. I sure as hell know that even though I was around the sport for 6 years before I started jumping that I didnt know the risk of swooping until I saw something happen upclose and personal. I think the last thing we need to do is expose unnessicary risks to students- Im sure femuring one is bad for repeat business as well as bad on many another levels. By the way- at some DZs, tandem masters talk to their students for 2minutes while going out to a waiting plane... they get trained by maybe one TM on the ground, if that TM doesnt swoop how in the world would the student be properl exposed to the risks of swooping a tandem? Not possible. Just my opinion though, I dont do tandems, So I do understand that I dont have the 'experince' to back up my words.. feel free to disagree..just from the DZs I have been at that hooked tandems it sometimes was a personal gripe that I didnt like.. especially when the TM cut it too close.. even if it was once or twice in a season- it only takes one tandem accident too really mess things up bad for everyone else- especially if the media got a hole of it was 'an un-needed high perfromance landing that landed this first time jumper into the hospital.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #40 February 20, 2006 thats the last thing I want to see if Wuffos seeing videos of people thumping in. not only would they ask for a refund- theyd probably never ever ever come back to any DZ because theyd get the image that everyone migt exposed to thumping in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #41 February 20, 2006 QuoteThere have been more then one jumper who thought they could do it every time and did, and were very experienced and now their dead or learning to wipe their ass again. Were these TM's, doing tandems when this happened? One point that seems to be missed here is that what TMs are doing wouldn't be considered a 'hook' turn on a sport canopy. A brake surge, or an easy 90 is far from a hook turn, and thats what most TMs use when they want some extra speed. I know that pro swoopers and highly experienced jumpers have been badly hurt with high performance landings, but when was that last pro swooper hurt doing a 90 approach? On a lightly loaded canopy? It easy to see how a multi rotational approach, on a heavily loaded x-brace, where you're getting up around 60 or 70 MPH, combined with a pond, and some tricks can be dangerous. However, what TMs are doing is far from that. They are doing 90's, on a mid performance canopy, generally with a WL around 1.0. That's a much different scenario that the swoop scenario I outlined above. With that said, there are TM's who are capable, and TMs who are not. With a 500 jump min. for getting a tandem rating, and alot of guys starting the course with 501 jumps, there's going to be a wide range of skills and abilities within the ranks of the TMs. I know TMs who can barely land their sport rigs straight in, and for these folks, hooking anything is out of the question. I also know TM's who jump high WL Velos, and are doing multi rotational, high speed swoops every jump they put on them. The tandem scenario is such a far departure from what they are used to, that I don't even think they make a consious decision to land in one way or another, they simply land the parachute. Tha action itself, is so far within their confort zone and abilities, that it's almost subconsious. I don't do tandems, but I do swoop hard on every jump. I know that when I borrow a rig, with any canopy bigger than my Velo (even another Velo), I feel a significant reduction in my workload with the slower canopy. It's not that I don't respect the canopy or the ground, but as a swooper, you get so used to working at a certain level, that any reduction in performance really takes the pressure off. Hooking a tandem is no different than hooking any other canopy. It is 100% dependent on the ability of the pilot, both in piloting skills and the ability to accurately judge if those skills are sufficient for the task at hand. Of course the incident reports show that many aspiring swoopers are no good at judging their own abilities, but that another story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #42 February 20, 2006 QuoteWhen you go somewhere for a 6 month contract job, you are expected to work in windy conditions....that's why they don't hire your average weekend TI. Its sounds safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #43 February 20, 2006 Well....the point was that people who have not skydived before can understand and accept the risks of high performance landings. I don't think swooping with an uninformed passenger is a good idea. I would consider it acceptable if the passenger wanted to land this way, was informed of the dangers, and accepted the risks. If that's the last thing you want to see, then that's fine, but I don't see that showing people what can happen to them up front is necessarily going to deter them from skydiving. It may deter them from riskier aspects of our sport as their introduction though. Either way if a tandem passenger wanted to swoop, I think it might be acceptable under certain conditions....and part of that is having them understand and accept the risks. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #44 February 20, 2006 QuoteYou don't have to really understand the aerodynamics of a parachute to see what happens to a person when he screws up a high performance landing. A simple video or two would suffice to aid a person's understanding I'd imagine. linz that's my point! and i'd wager not many prospective passengers would then say "OK, sure go ahead"..?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #45 February 20, 2006 I agree.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kruse 0 #46 February 20, 2006 Tandem "turning to land" approaches almost always require a "toogle turn". Due to the heavy front riser pressure on a tandem load. I think if you ask any professional canopy pilot, Tandem Manufacturer,or any high performance canopy manufacturer, they will give you several resons why toggle whipping can be very unforgiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #47 February 20, 2006 QuoteI think if you ask any professional canopy pilot, Tandem Manufacturer,or any high performance canopy manufacturer, they will give you several resons why toggle whipping can be very unforgiving. Agreed. Which is why you see qualified TMs who use a 90 are smooth with the toggles, and are not 'whipping' anything. Maintaining line tension and position under the wing are the hallmarks of a goodcanopy pilot. Toggle whipping in any context is the hallmark of an idiot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #48 February 20, 2006 > Its only more risky if you don't know what you are doing. . . . AND if you don't screw up. If you flare too low (or hook too low) then you will not have enough airspeed to recover. I've seen several tandems pile in because of this, usually explained by a "rotor" or something like that. >However, when extra speed is gained via a hook or a double break >approach I had better know what I am going to do with it . . . That's not the issue. A double front riser manuever adds speed, but you can't do that with a tandem. A brake manuever DECREASES speed, and requires you to pendulum forward to regain the speed. If you don't brake high enough, you will be penduluming forward as you impact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #49 February 20, 2006 Way to bring a little relativity and logic to the thread Dave. I haven't finished reading this thread but I'm guessing someone below will not agree with your commen sense attitude. Denny Crane“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #50 February 20, 2006 I was right.“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
