Charging standards war

[billvon 3,131]

If you go back to around 1990 there were half a dozen EV charging standards out there - odd outlets, paddle-like charging connectors, even an inductive charger that had no contacts at all.  Nowadays there are four:

J1772/SAE - this is both a level 2 and a level 3 standard (i.e. AC and DC charging.)  The DC charger is VERY large and is basically two more terminals grafted on to the standard Level 2 charger.  But the SAE endorses it which is a big deal.  J1772 is also the standard for low rate charging.

ChaDeMo - this is the Nissan standard.  Also big and complicated, but cannot do level 2 also.  This is level 3 only.

Mennekes - this is the three-phase European standard.

Tesla/NACS - this is the Tesla charger, which is level 2 and level 3 in the same form factor.  Also the smallest/lightest.

For a while ChaDeMo had the top spot purely due to the Nissan Leaf, which was the first EV.  Then once the SAE standard came out it looked like that was going to be it.  It worked well, except for being huge and hard to handle.

But then Tesla released its charging spec as an open standard (North American Charging Standard) and started making noises about allowing other EVs to use their charging networks.  Then a few weeks ago Ford announced it would offer some EVs with NACS charger ports, and Tesla said they would allow Fords to charge on their network.  Yesterday GM announced they were doing the same.

This is a pretty big change, because it means that Tesla now has:

-the charging standard that everyone is moving towards
-the smallest/lightest charging standard
-the largest charging network in the world

Tesla has been losing money on its fast chargers for quite some time; they saw it as a necessary step to selling a LOT of their EVs.  And it worked - the model Y is now the best selling car in the world.  But I am sure they, like everyone, likes to make money, and monetizing their existing network could do a lot for their cash flow, especially since the chargers are already there.

[BIGUN 1,500]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Yesterday GM announced they were doing the same.

This is a pretty big change, because it means that Tesla now has:

-the charging standard that everyone is moving towards
-the smallest/lightest charging standard
-the largest charging network in the world

Tesla has been losing money on its fast chargers for quite some time; they saw it as a necessary step to selling a LOT of their EVs.  And it worked - the model Y is now the best selling car in the world.  But I am sure they, like everyone, likes to make money, and monetizing their existing network could do a lot for their cash flow, especially since the chargers are already there.

I heard this on the news this morning. Personally, I think it's a great step forward for EV's. It should be as standard as a gas nozzle.  

 

EDIT: Not really the best analogy given the subject. Sometimes I crack meself up. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by BIGUN

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

If you go back to around 1990 there were half a dozen EV charging standards out there - odd outlets, paddle-like charging connectors, even an inductive charger that had no contacts at all.  Nowadays there are four:

J1772/SAE - this is both a level 2 and a level 3 standard (i.e. AC and DC charging.)  The DC charger is VERY large and is basically two more terminals grafted on to the standard Level 2 charger.  But the SAE endorses it which is a big deal.  J1772 is also the standard for low rate charging.

ChaDeMo - this is the Nissan standard.  Also big and complicated, but cannot do level 2 also.  This is level 3 only.

Mennekes - this is the three-phase European standard.

Tesla/NACS - this is the Tesla charger, which is level 2 and level 3 in the same form factor.  Also the smallest/lightest.

For a while ChaDeMo had the top spot purely due to the Nissan Leaf, which was the first EV.  Then once the SAE standard came out it looked like that was going to be it.  It worked well, except for being huge and hard to handle.

But then Tesla released its charging spec as an open standard (North American Charging Standard) and started making noises about allowing other EVs to use their charging networks.  Then a few weeks ago Ford announced it would offer some EVs with NACS charger ports, and Tesla said they would allow Fords to charge on their network.  Yesterday GM announced they were doing the same.

This is a pretty big change, because it means that Tesla now has:

-the charging standard that everyone is moving towards
-the smallest/lightest charging standard
-the largest charging network in the world

Tesla has been losing money on its fast chargers for quite some time; they saw it as a necessary step to selling a LOT of their EVs.  And it worked - the model Y is now the best selling car in the world.  But I am sure they, like everyone, likes to make money, and monetizing their existing network could do a lot for their cash flow, especially since the chargers are already there.

Hi Bill,

I read about this yesterday.  I think this decision(s) by Ford & GM are far bigger than most of us think at this time.  This IMO is truly a step in the right direction.

Relating to Keith's post, IMO this will become the de-facto standard just as nozzle sizes are now standard.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  A few months ago, the EU adopted a standard regarding cell phone chargers; much to Apple's chagrin.  However, IMO these are the things that must be completed to move the technology forward.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by JerryBaumchen

[SethInMI 174]

21 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

This IMO is truly a step in the right direction.

It certainly is. I think Tesla realized there are plenty of people who will not buy a Tesla, no matter how good its charging network is, and this way, like Bill said, they get to make money off those people. Also importantly Ford and GM will (it sounds like) contribute to building out the Tesla network and all 3 companies customers benefit from that.

Now what will VW and the Koreans do? Are they going to try to beat em, or join em?

<insert star wars "join us or die" meme>

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

8 hours ago, SethInMI said:

It certainly is. I think Tesla realized there are plenty of people who will not buy a Tesla, no matter how good its charging network is, and this way, like Bill said, they get to make money off those people. Also importantly Ford and GM will (it sounds like) contribute to building out the Tesla network and all 3 companies customers benefit from that.

Now what will VW and the Koreans do? Are they going to try to beat em, or join em?

<insert star wars "join us or die" meme>

Hi Seth,

My money says that all EV makers will join em.

It would take a pretty massive effort to stop the momentum that Tesla, Ford & GM have now created.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,967]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:58 PM, BIGUN said:

I heard this on the news this morning. Personally, I think it's a great step forward for EV's. It should be as standard as a gas nozzle.  

 

EDIT: Not really the best analogy given the subject. Sometimes I crack meself up. 

Are you actually arguing that all nozzles should conform to a standard? I'm not at peace with that.

[gowlerk 2,283]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Are you actually arguing that all nozzles should conform to a standard? I'm not at peace with that.

If you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em.

[BIGUN 1,500]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Are you actually arguing that all nozzles should conform to a standard? I'm not at peace with that.

Of course you're not. Tell us, Joe. What would give you peace?  

[JoeWeber 2,967]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Of course you're not. Tell us, Joe. What would give you peace?  

If you mean total, everlasting peace with our existence I am quite convinced that's unachievable; a fact that hasn't gone unnoticed by certain purveyors of eternal happiness. But if you put some effort into things and accept that what makes you at peace with something may not work for everyone else, you just might find yourself at peace with enough things to be happy. For example, last night I captured another Gecko for the boat. Doing it feels a bit wrong or even larcenous but I'm at peace with that so it makes me happy. Most people don't want them on the boat. They can be pains in the ass hiding in the running rigging just waiting to get mashed on the next tack so you need to coax them out of their hidey-hole which takes time but they scurry away comically so I'm at peace with that. The other thing is they leave small, almost rice grain sized turds everywhere. They're black with white tips and sometimes stick in place. That grosses out some people but I know that every one of those turds represents a couple dozen mosquitos and other biting things that are in the jungle so I'm at peace with it, and it makes me happy. The point being, obviously, that you really can never know what will give you peace or from where it will come but if you look for it hard enough, instead of waiting for it to come as a gift, then someday you just might be happy.

[BIGUN 1,500]

15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Doing it feels a bit wrong or even larcenous but I'm at peace with that so it makes me happy.

That about sums it up. 

[ryoder 1,590]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

 For example, last night I captured another Gecko for the boat.

Did he try to talk you into buying his insurance?

[billvon 3,131]

18 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

My money says that all EV makers will join em.

It will be interesting to see what Nissan does.  They are in bed pretty seriously with the ChaDeMo standard.

[SethInMI 174]

14 hours ago, billvon said:

They are in bed pretty seriously with the ChaDeMo standard.

The Nissan ARIYA is CCS.  They read the writing on the wall.

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi folks,

And, another one joins in:  Tesla chargers could become auto industry standard as Rivian joins network - oregonlive.com

It's gaining momentum.

Jerry Baumchen 

[kleggo 145]

This is my idea of a charging form factor.

A blown HEMI Ram Charger

[billvon 3,131]

56 minutes ago, kleggo said:

This is my idea of a charging form factor.

A blown HEMI Ram Charger

Blowers are going electric as well.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15122494/beltless-blower-electrifying-the-supercharger-tech-dept/

https://www.borgwarner.com/technologies/electric-boosting-technologies