countzero 7 #1 March 2, 2006 i didn't pass my level 4 this past weekend because i got flat after my first turn, and my instructor fell faster than i did. then i went into slow spins but once i corrected it was time to pull. i'm 140lbs. and 5-10. and due to genetics i've been rail thin my whole life. and i've heard that thinner people wear weights in thier suits to be able to fall relatively with other jumpers. so i was wondering if wearing weights around the waist could help me fall relatively with other jumpers? and since they'd be around the waist, physics would take over and pull my waist down betterthus helping me arch. would this work? cheersdiamonds are a dawgs best friend Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #2 March 2, 2006 What did your instructor say?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #3 March 2, 2006 It would work to help fine tune your skydiving. if you had more experiance. as a student it would not work. your instructor will make the adjustments he needs to make to himself to correct this. you need to arch, and weights wont help you arch. if your dearched it is easy to start a turn but hard to stop it, due to instability. if you arch, it is harder to start a turn but easier to stop it. due to stability. the answer to your problem is arch, and after your arching, then try and correct the turn or spin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
countzero 7 #4 March 2, 2006 QuoteWhat did your instructor say? i didn't think about this till today and thought i'd ask here before asking my instructor.diamonds are a dawgs best friend Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #5 March 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat did your instructor say? i didn't think about this till today and thought i'd ask here before asking my instructor. hahaha, change your way of thinking... ask your instructor. thats what they are there for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
countzero 7 #6 March 2, 2006 QuoteIt would work to help fine tune your skydiving. if you had more experiance. as a student it would not work. your instructor will make the adjustments he needs to make to himself to correct this. you need to arch, and weights wont help you arch. thank you for the info. i'm off to practice arching. cheers if your dearched it is easy to start a turn but hard to stop it, due to instability. if you arch, it is harder to start a turn but easier to stop it. due to stability. the answer to your problem is arch, and after your arching, then try and correct the turn or spin.diamonds are a dawgs best friend Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #7 March 2, 2006 your welcome... lol... next time you use the "quote" button. make sure you write underneath all the other writing. you messege got jumbled up in the quote. there are some shit hot cutie skydivers out there at your DZ. tell them all I said hi. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azureriders 0 #8 March 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat did your instructor say? i didn't think about this till today and thought i'd ask here before asking my instructor. hahaha, change your way of thinking... ask your instructor. thats what they are there for. Mark, I agree that is what instructors are for and as said by so many before, always ask your instructors. However, I don't believe that it is a bad idea to ask here first. Zero, Don't misunderstand me, if you are with your instructor and have a question, ask him. I am not suggesting that you wait until you can ask DZ.com first. Now, all too often I found my self sitting around and bam, there is a question in my head, why did I not ask my instructor that. Asking here first is a technique that I used, and still use, very successfully. You must however remember one thing, never believe a damn thing you are told here, by me or anyone else, and especially me. You can however use what you are told here to fuel your mind with questions to ask your instructor latter. Ask here first and the answers you get may add more questions for you to ask your instructor later, questions you may not have otherwise thought of. As for your original question, I am aprox. 265# out the door so I have no idea what you are talking about Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #9 March 2, 2006 the only issue with that, is that as an instructor, each and every one of us has a different way of dealing with different things. what I tell my students might be different from what this instructor does with his/her student. so to reduce the confusion on the students part, it is best for them to deal with the instructors that is taking them on there aff. It isnt bad to ask questions, but to get confused is not good. and even me, being an instructor myself, could confuse the student because I deal with certain things differently than his instructor. not that im wrong or right, or vice versa. it just isn't necessary to confuse a student at such a time as during there aff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #10 March 2, 2006 Quotei got flat after my first turn, and my instructor fell faster than i did. You do not need to get weights. You need to get a NEW Instructor. Find one that can do his job and stay with the student. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #11 March 2, 2006 I think your question is valid - to pose to your instructors, and I will say that I might disagree with what some others have said here. You should have to arch, but if you are having to arch till it hurts, and your fallrate still isn't enough, your instructors might be wise to consider a little weight on you so that you can be in a more natural body position. This assumes that you are having to try to arch very very much, as this can make it hard to control your symmetry - avoid turns. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be a bad thing to propose to your instructors that you might all be better off if you didn't have to do aerial yoga to stay at their fallrate. However, if they say it is not needed, then don't press the point, let their judgement be the final word, without pushing further. It isn't that weights 'pull your waist down' to help you arch, the weights just make you fall faster than you would otherwise given the same body position. Good luck.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #12 March 2, 2006 I wore weights for AFF, starting with my first release dive. Weights don't help ya arch, but they do help fallrate. I started with 2 pretty big instructors who struggled (but stayed with me) and eventually only jumped with 2 smaller ones for the rest of my AFF jumps. Wore weights for almost all of my first 200 jumps, then suddenly started falling faster (without gaining weight) and haven't needed them since. But if ya need em, ya need em. But for a student, it's the instructor's call. Best call for him MIGHT be to pass the student on to someone else, but it might also be to have the student add weights. I needed both. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,100 #13 March 2, 2006 Generally students do not wear weights. Why? 1. AFF-I's are trained to be able to adjust their fallrate to you; that's why they get the big bucks. (Well, they don't get the big bucks, but you know what I mean.) 2. Increased freefall speed can lead to harder openings - so everything else being equal, slower is better at pull time on most student canopies. 3. Weights can reduce the need to arch, and arching is very important for stability. 4. If you have a bad landing, the weights can be the little extra energy that breaks your ankle. 5. If you land in water, they may be bad (obviously.) All that being said, sometimes AFF-I's put weights on students. It's not something I would do with my students, but the best person to ask will be your instructor, not us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #14 March 2, 2006 QuoteI wore weights for AFF, starting with my first release dive. Weights don't help ya arch, but they do help fallrate. I started with 2 pretty big instructors who struggled (but stayed with me) and eventually only jumped with 2 smaller ones for the rest of my AFF jumps. Wore weights for almost all of my first 200 jumps, then suddenly started falling faster (without gaining weight) and haven't needed them since. But if ya need em, ya need em. But for a student, it's the instructor's call. Best call for him MIGHT be to pass the student on to someone else, but it might also be to have the student add weights. I needed both. Dave If the student has the ability to arch, and is not in a flat or dearched position on the ground, it is wrong for the instructor to add wieghts to a student for their inabilities to fly with them. Having a good instructor that can "dress for sucess" and match the fall rate of the student, with some extra room for adjustment , up or down, in their bag, is much easier then weighting up a student to fall with the instructor. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #15 March 2, 2006 QuoteYou should have to arch, but if you are having to arch till it hurts, and your fallrate still isn't enough, your instructors might be wise to consider a little weight on you so that you can be in a more natural body position. This assumes that you are having to try to arch very very much, as this can make it hard to control your symmetry - avoid turns. this is where an instructor rating would have helped you understand what is going on better. the reason he had the turn is because of the instability, lack of arching. weights will not help with that. if he was arching till it hurt, I can preatty much guarentee he would have not been turning or spinning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #16 March 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou should have to arch, but if you are having to arch till it hurts, and your fallrate still isn't enough, your instructors might be wise to consider a little weight on you so that you can be in a more natural body position. This assumes that you are having to try to arch very very much, as this can make it hard to control your symmetry - avoid turns. this is where an instructor rating would have helped you understand what is going on better. the reason he had the turn is because of the instability, lack of arching. weights will not help with that. if he was arching till it hurt, I can preatty much guarentee he would have not been turning or spinning. I'm sorry Mark I'm not sure I understand what you're saying... I'm not saying its wrong but just that I don't understand it. Someone can be arching "very hard" but not be symmetric thus causing a spin... although its more likely that someone "thinks" they're arching "hard" when in fact they're more likely stiff as a board and jsut as flat. (I'm not saying this is the case here.) I've seen video of a jumper that was flat like this and the JM really had a "fun" time with her. To the original poster: Have the instructors seen/shot any video of you're jumps? ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #17 March 2, 2006 like I said before. when you dearched "unstable" it is easy to start a turn/spin, and hard to stop it, "without experiance". when you are arching "stable" it is more difficult to start a turn, but easy to stop it. when you are arched and "very" stable, you can be out of symetry ever so slightly and it is ok. if you are flat, you will spinn like a top. look at high performance parachutes, or even airplane wings. they are flat. then look at a jumbo passenger jet wing, it is more rounded. hope that helps a little. ok, so im not saying he wasn't out of symetry, just saying that if he was arched, it may have never even got like that. and if it did, it would have been a whole lot easier to stop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #18 March 2, 2006 Quotelike I said before. when you dearched "unstable" it is easy to start a turn/spin, and hard to stop it, "without experiance". when you are arching "stable" it is more difficult to start a turn, but easy to stop it. when you are arched and "very" stable, you can be out of symetry ever so slightly and it is ok. if you are flat, you will spinn like a top. look at high performance parachutes, or even airplane wings. they are flat. then look at a jumbo passenger jet wing, it is more rounded. hope that helps a little. Yep, That makes sense... Thanks.Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #19 March 2, 2006 That's one of the things I really like about Mark..he can get info to you in a pleasant way and can put it across in a number of ways so that we can understand.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #20 March 2, 2006 QuoteThat's one of the things I really like about Mark..he can get info to you in a pleasant way and can put it across in a number of ways so that we can understand. I agree... Mark is cool like that. Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #21 March 2, 2006 QuoteThat's one of the things I really like about Mark..he can get info to you in a pleasant way and can put it across in a number of ways so that we can understand. lol.... you are part of the few who would say that., actually, treating experianced skydivers one way, you have to treat students different.. you been to the swooping forum lately? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #22 March 2, 2006 yes...some good discussion going on about "Experienced teaching inexperienced"... I agree with your point of view....My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #23 March 2, 2006 Weights arent a cure for a poor arch. Your intructor will probably want you to get a good arch 1st and foremost. Talk to him about what you need to do to get that arch properly.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #24 March 2, 2006 Quotelol.... you are part of the few who would say that Not true, you are still one of my favorites...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #25 March 2, 2006 QuoteWeights arent a cure for a poor arch. Your intructor will probably want you to get a good arch 1st and foremost. Talk to him about what you need to do to get that arch properly. now that I think about it a little more, adding weight in this situation, would only cause him to turn/spin more. because he would be falling faster.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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azureriders 0 #8 March 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat did your instructor say? i didn't think about this till today and thought i'd ask here before asking my instructor. hahaha, change your way of thinking... ask your instructor. thats what they are there for. Mark, I agree that is what instructors are for and as said by so many before, always ask your instructors. However, I don't believe that it is a bad idea to ask here first. Zero, Don't misunderstand me, if you are with your instructor and have a question, ask him. I am not suggesting that you wait until you can ask DZ.com first. Now, all too often I found my self sitting around and bam, there is a question in my head, why did I not ask my instructor that. Asking here first is a technique that I used, and still use, very successfully. You must however remember one thing, never believe a damn thing you are told here, by me or anyone else, and especially me. You can however use what you are told here to fuel your mind with questions to ask your instructor latter. Ask here first and the answers you get may add more questions for you to ask your instructor later, questions you may not have otherwise thought of. As for your original question, I am aprox. 265# out the door so I have no idea what you are talking about Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #9 March 2, 2006 the only issue with that, is that as an instructor, each and every one of us has a different way of dealing with different things. what I tell my students might be different from what this instructor does with his/her student. so to reduce the confusion on the students part, it is best for them to deal with the instructors that is taking them on there aff. It isnt bad to ask questions, but to get confused is not good. and even me, being an instructor myself, could confuse the student because I deal with certain things differently than his instructor. not that im wrong or right, or vice versa. it just isn't necessary to confuse a student at such a time as during there aff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #10 March 2, 2006 Quotei got flat after my first turn, and my instructor fell faster than i did. You do not need to get weights. You need to get a NEW Instructor. Find one that can do his job and stay with the student. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #11 March 2, 2006 I think your question is valid - to pose to your instructors, and I will say that I might disagree with what some others have said here. You should have to arch, but if you are having to arch till it hurts, and your fallrate still isn't enough, your instructors might be wise to consider a little weight on you so that you can be in a more natural body position. This assumes that you are having to try to arch very very much, as this can make it hard to control your symmetry - avoid turns. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be a bad thing to propose to your instructors that you might all be better off if you didn't have to do aerial yoga to stay at their fallrate. However, if they say it is not needed, then don't press the point, let their judgement be the final word, without pushing further. It isn't that weights 'pull your waist down' to help you arch, the weights just make you fall faster than you would otherwise given the same body position. Good luck.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #12 March 2, 2006 I wore weights for AFF, starting with my first release dive. Weights don't help ya arch, but they do help fallrate. I started with 2 pretty big instructors who struggled (but stayed with me) and eventually only jumped with 2 smaller ones for the rest of my AFF jumps. Wore weights for almost all of my first 200 jumps, then suddenly started falling faster (without gaining weight) and haven't needed them since. But if ya need em, ya need em. But for a student, it's the instructor's call. Best call for him MIGHT be to pass the student on to someone else, but it might also be to have the student add weights. I needed both. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,100 #13 March 2, 2006 Generally students do not wear weights. Why? 1. AFF-I's are trained to be able to adjust their fallrate to you; that's why they get the big bucks. (Well, they don't get the big bucks, but you know what I mean.) 2. Increased freefall speed can lead to harder openings - so everything else being equal, slower is better at pull time on most student canopies. 3. Weights can reduce the need to arch, and arching is very important for stability. 4. If you have a bad landing, the weights can be the little extra energy that breaks your ankle. 5. If you land in water, they may be bad (obviously.) All that being said, sometimes AFF-I's put weights on students. It's not something I would do with my students, but the best person to ask will be your instructor, not us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #14 March 2, 2006 QuoteI wore weights for AFF, starting with my first release dive. Weights don't help ya arch, but they do help fallrate. I started with 2 pretty big instructors who struggled (but stayed with me) and eventually only jumped with 2 smaller ones for the rest of my AFF jumps. Wore weights for almost all of my first 200 jumps, then suddenly started falling faster (without gaining weight) and haven't needed them since. But if ya need em, ya need em. But for a student, it's the instructor's call. Best call for him MIGHT be to pass the student on to someone else, but it might also be to have the student add weights. I needed both. Dave If the student has the ability to arch, and is not in a flat or dearched position on the ground, it is wrong for the instructor to add wieghts to a student for their inabilities to fly with them. Having a good instructor that can "dress for sucess" and match the fall rate of the student, with some extra room for adjustment , up or down, in their bag, is much easier then weighting up a student to fall with the instructor. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #15 March 2, 2006 QuoteYou should have to arch, but if you are having to arch till it hurts, and your fallrate still isn't enough, your instructors might be wise to consider a little weight on you so that you can be in a more natural body position. This assumes that you are having to try to arch very very much, as this can make it hard to control your symmetry - avoid turns. this is where an instructor rating would have helped you understand what is going on better. the reason he had the turn is because of the instability, lack of arching. weights will not help with that. if he was arching till it hurt, I can preatty much guarentee he would have not been turning or spinning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #16 March 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou should have to arch, but if you are having to arch till it hurts, and your fallrate still isn't enough, your instructors might be wise to consider a little weight on you so that you can be in a more natural body position. This assumes that you are having to try to arch very very much, as this can make it hard to control your symmetry - avoid turns. this is where an instructor rating would have helped you understand what is going on better. the reason he had the turn is because of the instability, lack of arching. weights will not help with that. if he was arching till it hurt, I can preatty much guarentee he would have not been turning or spinning. I'm sorry Mark I'm not sure I understand what you're saying... I'm not saying its wrong but just that I don't understand it. Someone can be arching "very hard" but not be symmetric thus causing a spin... although its more likely that someone "thinks" they're arching "hard" when in fact they're more likely stiff as a board and jsut as flat. (I'm not saying this is the case here.) I've seen video of a jumper that was flat like this and the JM really had a "fun" time with her. To the original poster: Have the instructors seen/shot any video of you're jumps? ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #17 March 2, 2006 like I said before. when you dearched "unstable" it is easy to start a turn/spin, and hard to stop it, "without experiance". when you are arching "stable" it is more difficult to start a turn, but easy to stop it. when you are arched and "very" stable, you can be out of symetry ever so slightly and it is ok. if you are flat, you will spinn like a top. look at high performance parachutes, or even airplane wings. they are flat. then look at a jumbo passenger jet wing, it is more rounded. hope that helps a little. ok, so im not saying he wasn't out of symetry, just saying that if he was arched, it may have never even got like that. and if it did, it would have been a whole lot easier to stop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #18 March 2, 2006 Quotelike I said before. when you dearched "unstable" it is easy to start a turn/spin, and hard to stop it, "without experiance". when you are arching "stable" it is more difficult to start a turn, but easy to stop it. when you are arched and "very" stable, you can be out of symetry ever so slightly and it is ok. if you are flat, you will spinn like a top. look at high performance parachutes, or even airplane wings. they are flat. then look at a jumbo passenger jet wing, it is more rounded. hope that helps a little. Yep, That makes sense... Thanks.Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #19 March 2, 2006 That's one of the things I really like about Mark..he can get info to you in a pleasant way and can put it across in a number of ways so that we can understand.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #20 March 2, 2006 QuoteThat's one of the things I really like about Mark..he can get info to you in a pleasant way and can put it across in a number of ways so that we can understand. I agree... Mark is cool like that. Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #21 March 2, 2006 QuoteThat's one of the things I really like about Mark..he can get info to you in a pleasant way and can put it across in a number of ways so that we can understand. lol.... you are part of the few who would say that., actually, treating experianced skydivers one way, you have to treat students different.. you been to the swooping forum lately? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #22 March 2, 2006 yes...some good discussion going on about "Experienced teaching inexperienced"... I agree with your point of view....My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #23 March 2, 2006 Weights arent a cure for a poor arch. Your intructor will probably want you to get a good arch 1st and foremost. Talk to him about what you need to do to get that arch properly.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #24 March 2, 2006 Quotelol.... you are part of the few who would say that Not true, you are still one of my favorites...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #25 March 2, 2006 QuoteWeights arent a cure for a poor arch. Your intructor will probably want you to get a good arch 1st and foremost. Talk to him about what you need to do to get that arch properly. now that I think about it a little more, adding weight in this situation, would only cause him to turn/spin more. because he would be falling faster.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
