Safe? - Photo inside

[lisamariewillbe 1]

So you dont think its dangerous? The dangers of a hybrid mean nothing if its with a tandem? A jump master is PAID to take people on skydives. A tandem is about the passenger NOT about the jump master and vidiot getting a wicked cool picture when it is putting the student (who knows possibly NOTHING of the added risk) in even MORE danger then they were when they choose to make the jump. Any tandem master who feels that this picture is "safe" is in my opinion as a consumer and as skydiver is WRONG. It is not safe, it is not funny, it is not a game. Skydiving is not a game.

A TI or AFF instructor should not be allowed to do things that put their student at a higher risk when the student is unaware of the risks or the motivation behind taking the risk.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[mattjw916 2]

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1. Hanger can have a reserve deployment. Possibly (more then likely) kill ALL THREE in the hybrid

So, the reserve PC gets catapulted clear of the tandem (since the reserve bridle is very long) and the hangar gets yanked off, ouch! Not a high probability of "killing everyone" there.

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2. Hanger can become un-stable and cork and hurt or kill the passenger and themselves

Corking while hanging is not a violent act and the impact would be trivial... I know, because I have done it before.

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3. The higher speeds can cause problems as well. Which i learned this because I am considering my first hybrid and sought information on them.

What problems specifically? I have been base, hangar, stinger, and outside video for hybrids and have yet to see anyone killed because it didn't go perfectly.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Premature of the hanger? Why is that anymore likely on this jump than any other? I've done faaaar more "dangerous" stuff than that then

You have experience, the student doesnt. Also if the TI has a early deployment it will most likely NOT kill the student where if that hanger (who is experienced) had one it would KILL the tandem student (who has no experience or knowledge)

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Kimblair13 0]

Calm down there Spunky.

I don't know details of the jump. Experience, etc... For all I know that student is an experienced jumper.

Like I said...what gets you all pumped up about being dangerous, is no big deal to someone else, for example... those jumpers in the pic.

Opinions opinions opinions, can't argue over them.

[billvon 3,076]

>.the tandem rig has nothing to do with it being dangerous.....

Holy cow!

A tandem is NOT just another skydive. I think the idea that a tandem is just a bigger solo jumper has killed more than a few people. The exit dynamics are different, the opening dynamics are different, the risks for a premature opening is different, fall rate is different, pull altitudes are different, and the ability of the tandem to get out of the way is different.

You can do a lot with a tandem if you take the differences seriously, and the 'passenger' is an experienced jumper who you know won't start pulling handles, kicking or grabbing people if they get freaked out - and if the other jumpers are trained to be able to get out of the way during a premature (like AFF-I's are.) But just putting a bunch of freeflyers out with a first time tandem to do a hybrid is a recipie for an incident report.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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For all I know that student is an experienced jumper

Ive asked this of the picture, and all my posts on this have been with the thought process of it being a tandem passenger that is NOT a experienced skydiver. Since an experienced skydiver would know the risks associated with such a jump.

I am passionate about students and their safety, and I dont have to have alot of jumps to feel this way.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[divnswoop 0]

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So, the reserve PC gets catapulted clear of the tandem (since the reserve bridle is very long) and the hangar gets yanked off, ouch! Not a high probability of "killing everyone" there.

Corking while hanging is not a violent act and the impact would be trivial... I know, because I have done it before.

lol......seems like you have it all figured out!!

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>.the tandem rig has nothing to do with it being dangerous.....

Bill.....my point was this is just as dangerous on a Strong/sigma/vector rig....(he aluded to the sigma system)..NOT that is WASN'T dangerous in my eyes!!

[kelpdiver 2]

it wouldn't surprise me if the hangar was a friend (or boyfriend) of the tandem student. I would hope so, for the added risk. No way to know if she (or he) knew the scope of the danger there - I'd assume he did and she didn't.

Memorable jump as it ended well. Guess it would be memorable too if it didn't.

I'd probably stay clear of the vertical column, but don't feel like passing judgement on this one.

I just want to be somewhere warm enough to properly be in shorts. (I did once, but it was damn cold)

[billvon 3,076]

>So, the reserve PC gets catapulted clear of the tandem . . .

Have you ever seen an unstable reserve deployment? The PC gets to the end of its spring - and then the entire thing goes straight up no matter what orientation the jumper is in. No 'getting catapulted clear.' If it's an experienced jumper above, they may be able to roll out of the way to avoid the reserve deployment. A tandem can't. An experienced jumper knows to get away from the deploying reserve. Students don't know that, and indeed have an instinct to grab things if they get worried. (How many fingers you think you'd lose if you grabbed a deploying reserve by the lines?)

>Corking while hanging is not a violent act and the impact would be trivial...
>I know, because I have done it before.

Unless they end up above the tandem after the cork, try to get clear, hit the drouge and fall 15 feet onto their backs - and I've seen that before too. (It wasn't even a hybrid, just an RW jumper who got too close to a tandem and tried to dodge him.)

>What problems specifically? I have been base, hangar, stinger, and
> outside video for hybrids and have yet to see anyone killed because it
>didn't go perfectly.

A tandem is NOT like another jumper; it's not just another skydive. Your experience may not apply.

Tandems are like demos. Demos can be done safely and they are done safely all the time. People even jump with smoke, flags, game balls and streamers, and it can all work out. But the easiest way to get hurt or killed on a demo is consider it "just another skydive" that anyone can do. It is not.

[billvon 3,076]

>Bill.....my point was this is just as dangerous on a Strong/sigma/vector rig....

Ah, got ya.

[slotperfect 7]

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A tandem is NOT just another skydive

In my opinion the Instructor's responsibility is triple that of a typical sport jump:

x1 = He is responsible for the student's life. This in itself is an incredibly huge responsibility.

x2 = He is responsible for his own life (same-as-it-ever-was)

x3 = The increased risk inherent in tandems. Lots of things add to this: the complexity of the rig, the physical effort required by the TM, the weights and fall-rates involved, and the "dynamics" that Bill so accurately described. Unpredictable student behavior, IMHO, is the biggest factor that contributes to the importance of being aware of those dynamics.

Arrive Safely

John

[mattjw916 2]

I wasn't trying to say that there was _no_ additional risk by any means but rather that the additional risk wasn't as catastrophic as some make it out to be.

Yes I have witnessed a premature main and reserve deployment first hand and they are inarguably a violent "function" but as was stated earlier _any_ skydive can be "what-if'd" ad nauseaum.

I don't see this as substantially more dangerous than some of the 8-way rounds built with tandems in the past.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[billvon 3,076]

>I don't see this as substantially more dangerous than some of the
>8-way rounds built with tandems in the past.

Here's a few ways -

Student deploys the tandem early. Hanger realizes this and lets go. He then collides with the tandem who is falling into him via the "trapdoor" effect. Student feels she is falling and grabs the freeflyer. Tandem begins deploying, one side low because the student has a good grip with her left hand. She finally lets go, but not before the bag has spun into a lineover.

Student deploys the tandem early. Hanger realizes this and lets go. He then collides with the tandem who is falling into him via the "trapdoor" effect. Student feels she is falling and grabs the freeflyer's convenient grab handle. His reserve deploys, and goes through the lines of the tandem.

Doing anything with a tandem is very similar to doing it with a first jump student - they can deploy at any time, and no one knows what they are going to do with their hands. They have a JM and a drouge attached to them, which means it's harder for them to go unstable and the JM is probably going to pull on time. But you simply cannot predict what a new jumper is going to do, and if you don't have training avoiding sudden deployments, you may not be able to dodge the result. Now, if that passenger has 100 jumps (or even 5!) and the other people in that 8 way are JM's (or even coaches, or bigway jumpers used to pullouts) then you may be fine. But I think you have to think about this stuff before the jump, not while you're filling out the incident report.

[mattjw916 2]

But she can't grab his handle because it's covered by his tee-shirt.

Bizarre and unlikely reserve entanglements aside, if the jump was discussed ahead of time and everyone was of appropriate experience levels I still don't see it as the big deal that others are trying to make of it.

I immediately thought of a bunch of "worst case" scenarios when I saw the photo too, but most of them are beyond the realm of possibility.

I still think it's a "cool" photo... and I have seen faaar more dangerous things. Like the 400-way for example.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pilotdave 0]

Tandems are a very sensitive subject. They're where a HUGE amount of the liability in the sport lies, and they're where regulations and restrictions are most likely to come from. Tandem fatalities are MUCH worse for everyone in the sport than pretty much any other type of fatality. A hybrid with a tandem might only be a little more dangerous than a regular hybrid (not that I'd agree with that assessment), but the consequences of an accident are far worse. Theres just no reason to do things like that.

Dave

[mfrese 0]

Just for the record, that's NOT a Sigma system, it's a Vector II. The drogue system alone adds way more risk than I'd probably be comfortable with.

I've done a fair amount of tandem RW, and there are maybe three people on the planet I'd trust to do that jump if I were the TI. And, the passenger would have to be an experienced jumper. And, I'd have to be featured on a half-hour special on "Risk Takers" on the Discovery Channel.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[mattjw916 2]

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Theres just no reason to do things like that.

There's no reason to swoop, do CReW at night, or make world record formations in foreign countries from high altitude either but we still have people that are chomping at the bit to do it. Additional risks be damned.

This sport was pioneered by "risk takers". Hell, you think _anyone_ would be able to fly a wingsuit if people hadn't taken big risks during their development?

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pilotdave 0]

Gee I never thought of that. I guess you're right.

It's obviously not worth trying, so I'll sit back and watch if anyone else wants to take a shot.

Dave

[johnny1488 1]

If this person was a student, are they really going to know the difference between a 3 way RW dive done safely and this hybrid? I would imagine this jump was engineered strictly for the photo-op.

Anything that further endangers the safety of A STUDENT ie non-skydiver needs to be tremendously pre-thought out. No one is saying dont do anything uber-dangerous in skydiving. Do whatever the fuck you want. Go and fuckin bounce on video tape if you want. Go fuckin track into your ex-girlfriends car while shes at work. But dont endanger an ignorant student by putting them in a postion more dangerous than they have to be for a photo.

Are you a tandem instructor?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[stratostar 5]

So you don't think that if the hangers main or reserve opened premature there is not added risk of,

1. smacking both and killing them
2. canopy tangles with the drouge
3. canopy wraps around tandem pair
just to name 3 right off the top.

And don't tell me that just cuz you corked and didn't kill anyone that it hasn't happened and won't happen again, the dz I worked this last season just had a TM get killed from a camera man!(non cork)

Dude I don't know you or your jump numbers!
However your out look on this is what is wrong with the "new kids" of todays sport and I'm damm glad I don't jump with you, thinking the way you do my guess is you won't last long, I only hope you don't take someone with you.

I think anyone who condones this type of action with a tandem is fucked in the head and risking the livelihood of the dz should this happen here in the states, there is a reason why we don't do barber poles anymore, it's bad practice, not that you can't do it 100 or 1000 times and get away with it, it only take's one fuck up to kill someone else, why don't you track down the guy who took out Roger Nelson(RIP) or the camera man that took out the TM this summer and ask them how it feels to live with it, I have seen what it dose to someone to have to carry that load. Have you? How many friends have you put in the dirt due to an accident?

In skydiving we call it an accident and no one goes to prison for it cuz we are jumping out of a plane.
But if I run you over in the parking lot because my pedal stuck it's called manslaughter even though it was an accident.
So with your thinking I guess I could run you over oops it was and accident, kick some dirt on you and carry on ,after all shit happens,right.


~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mattjw916 2]

You're totally right!!! _I'm_ what's wrong with this sport!!! /sarcasm

I love when the obligatory "dude you're gunna go in" or "you won't last long" posts are made. I actually find them very inspiring personally. They inspire me to never become so jaded that I do nothing more than vent negativity with every stroke of the keyboard.

Your tandem fatality example is an apples and oranges comparison. The camera flyer flew above the tandem during deployment and had a collision killing the TM.

By your own account then, half the TMs that responded to the poll in the instructor's forum, and said they would possibly participate in a similar jump, are "fucked in the head" too. It appears not everyone shares your sentiment.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[stratostar 5]

Your tandem fatality example is an apples and oranges comparison. The camera flyer flew above the tandem during deployment and had a collision killing the TM. (quote)

it don't take that much of an impact to snap a neck is the point, from above or below.

By your own account then, half the TMs that responded to the poll in the instructor's forum, and said they would possibly participate in a similar jump, are "fucked in the head" too.(quote)

Yep!

It appears not everyone shares your sentiment(quote)

I didn't think you or "they" would.
But I'll bet my money that more TI's would agree with me then you.

You're totally right!!! _I'm_ what's wrong with this sport!!! (quote)

It's your mindset I'm talking about, you come across as if it's no big fucking deal, sign me up.
My guess is you don't have a tandem rating if you did I don't think you would feel the same.
Then again maybe you would.

As I said with your mindset I'm glad I don't jump in the same airspace as you or others like you.
JMO.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 3,076]

>half the TMs that responded to the poll in the instructor's forum, and
>said they would possibly participate in a similar jump, are "fucked in the
>head" too.

I would do that jump too, if I could pick the other jumpers and the passenger was experienced. I just wouldn't risk a student. It pretty much goes against everything I think about a TI's responsibility towards a student. We have every right to risk our own lives; we don't have the right to risk someone else's - especially one who cannot comprehend the risks.

[gemini 0]

You can speculate what if's forever. I think I'll just ask the two people I know that are in the picture how they prepared for the jump, including the experience of the passenger.

Blue skies,

Jim

[mattjw916 2]

Exactly at how many years in sport are you granted the mind-reading skill to know what my mindset is? You seem a lot like the grumpy old-schoolers that sit on their lawn-chairs at the DZ most of the day poo-pooing the "newbies" and their "pocket-rockets".

Is that a fair assessment of you? Do you really think that's what I think about you when I read your posts? Do you like when someone is unnecessarily judgemental without all the facts? No?

If I had a penchant for making snap value judgements about people without bothering to get to know them first maybe I would. But, as it is, I don't.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080