Defense Spending

[gowlerk 2,277]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Let's not pretend it's for any reason other than Canadians are smarter than Americans.

Yep, in fact picking when it comes to up the dinner check Canada is smarter than everyone except Slovenia and Portugal. https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pdf/210611-pr-2021-094-en.pdf

In all seriousness, Canadians should be embarrassed. Moreover, some Canadians should be a little more understanding of attitudes held by the likes of myself, Keith, Brent and anyone else that would care to join in.

I am a little embarrassed. Slovenia and Portugal are even smarter. We need to sharpen our pencils apparently. Canada will do what needs to be done when it needs doing like we always have. Other than annoying the likes of Brent and possibly Keith and now you I can see no downsides to the Canadian way. Not one single Canadian has died of embarrassment that I am aware of. Meanwhile the neighbour with the shiny expensive toys keeps sending young people in uniform to places they have no business being then coming home in a few years licking their wounds and grieving their losses. Embarrassed? Me? You're kidding right?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

12 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Let's not pretend it's for any reason other than Canadians are smarter than Americans.

Yep, in fact picking when it comes to up the dinner check Canada is smarter than everyone except Slovenia and Portugal. https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pdf/210611-pr-2021-094-en.pdf

In all seriousness, Canadians should be embarrassed. Moreover, some Canadians should be a little more understanding of attitudes held by the likes of myself, Keith, Brent and anyone else that would care to join in.

Looks like the rest of NATO has been picking up the decrease in US expenditures.

 

 

 

 

[billeisele 130]

9 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Looks like the rest of NATO has been picking up the decrease in US expenditures.

 

 

 

 

This thread is great, luv the comedy and prodding.
Defence?? That was defunded a year ago. 
Probably no need to talk about who or why NATO started paying more into the pot for defense.

Just open up so I can get back to Whistler. I've spent enough money there to fund at least one tank.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

24 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I am a little embarrassed. Slovenia and Portugal are even smarter. We need to sharpen our pencils apparently. Canada will do what needs to be done when it needs doing like we always have. Other than annoying the likes of Brent and possibly Keith and now you I can see no downsides to the Canadian way. Not one single Canadian has died of embarrassment that I am aware of. Meanwhile the neighbour with the shiny expensive toys keeps sending young people in uniform to places they have no business being then coming home in a few years licking their wounds and grieving their losses. Embarrassed? Me? You're kidding right?

No, kidding, I'm not. This is not about looking into the neighbors window it's about looking down the street and around the corner. You won't have the time for anything when the time comes except to say thank you. You're being disingenuous, again. 

[JoeWeber 2,941]

21 minutes ago, billeisele said:

This thread is great, luv the comedy and prodding.
Defence?? That was defunded a year ago. 
Probably no need to talk about who or why NATO started paying more into the pot for defense.

Just open up so I can get back to Whistler. I've spent enough money there to fund at least one tank.

Bill, what and who's defence was defunded?

[gowlerk 2,277]

29 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Just open up so I can get back to Whistler.

Done. Starting April 1st as long as you are fully 2 dose vaccinated you no longer need to be tested. Welcome back.

[gowlerk 2,277]

26 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You won't have the time for anything when the time comes except to say thank you.

As long as you don't go full Keith on Putler the missiles will stay siloed. And if they do come out we will get hammered just because we are so near to you. History teaches a very different lesson from the one you are trying to preach.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

Just open up so I can get back to Whistler.

We are open, just need to be vaccinated. Was in Whistler on Sunday for probably the worst day of skiing...but such is Whistler.

[billeisele 130]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Bill, what and who's defence was defunded?

You know - da fence. That thing on our southern border. It was supposed to be HUGEEE.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

As long as you don't go full Keith on Putler the missiles will stay siloed. And if they do come out we will get hammered just because we are so near to you. History teaches a very different lesson from the one you are trying to preach.

Apparently Canada goes cheap on their history books, too. Believe as you will but do not believe that the cheap or the meek will inherit the earth. My prediction is that in five years all of our allies except Canada will have increased spending on their militaries to a significant degree. Then the truth of Canada's fidelity will be laid bare for all to see.

[jakee 1,596]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Apparently Canada goes cheap on their history books, too. Believe as you will but do not believe that the cheap or the meek will inherit the earth.

Ok, cool. Unless your goal is world domination, so what?

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

My prediction is that in five years all of our allies except Canada will have increased spending on their militaries to a significant degree.

And will have achieved as much with it as a fart in the wind, so who cares? Are you just jealous that Canada might recognise the pointlessness and futility of that action?

[gowlerk 2,277]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Believe as you will but do not believe that the cheap or the meek will inherit the earth.

Who is going to inherit the Earth? America? On the list of the world's 50 largest defense contractors US corporations occupy 19 spots including the 5 top ones. You spend money like a drunken sailor, or more like a power mad politician. Yet you consistently come home with your tail between your legs. You start wars that you can not end pissing away resources that your hard working people keep shoveling into the furnace of corrupt greed. All the time sitting on enough WMD to attract the other side's attention with each of you parking missile submarines in hiding places so that both of you can be certain of each other's destruction. The meek will indeed inherit what is left of the Earth after your foolish pride ruins your part of it, and most likely my part as well. 

[wmw999 2,589]

I agree with your characterization of US military spending. The problem is that the earth has people who will never, ever, let anyone inherit it as long as they can take/keep it from them. Human nature.

And as far as benefitting from location is concerned (previous discussion in this thread), the US also benefits hugely from its location. It’s expensive to attack us in the numbers necessary to make inroads. Probably too expensive for any nation.

For now at least. Eventually we won’t be the richest. We’ll be more like the Hapsburgs in 17th and 18th century Spain — marrying only the bluest of blood, and inbreeding ourselves away from strength  

Wendy P. 

[Phil1111 1,183]

19 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Who is going to inherit the Earth? America? On the list of the world's 50 largest defense contractors US corporations occupy 19 spots including the 5 top ones. You spend money like a drunken sailor, or more like a power mad politician. Yet you consistently come home with your tail between your legs. You start wars that you can not end pissing away resources that your hard working people keep shoveling into the furnace of corrupt greed. All the time sitting on enough WMD to attract the other side's attention with each of you parking missile submarines in hiding places so that both of you can be certain of each other's destruction. The meek will indeed inherit what is left of the Earth after your foolish pride ruins your part of it, and most likely my part as well. 

Shhhhhh. He obviously hasn't heard of the Roman empire. Hasn't heard how China became the second largest economy in the world. By emphasizing economy over military.

1 minute ago, wmw999 said:

I agree with your characterization of US military spending. The problem is that the earth has people who will never, ever, let anyone inherit it as long as they can take/keep it from them. Human nature.

And as far as benefitting from location is concerned (previous discussion in this thread), the US also benefits hugely from its location. It’s expensive to attack us in the numbers necessary to make inroads. Probably too expensive for any nation.

For now at least. Eventually we won’t be the richest.

Wendy P. 

Yes. Although America will be fine. China has the drag of corruption and authoritarianism. Throwing off those two anchors won't be easy. The difference between 1.5% that Canada spends and 4.5% that the US spends. Mostly arising from the military industrial complex. Can be spent on infrastructure, social programs, education, etc. But in the end its just a net drag on the economy. Similar to the excess expense that the US health care industry incurs on Americans. For the false economy of the competition model thrust upon it by industry lobbying.

For the net benefits of cheap new patented pharma and the US military umbrella. Thanks

[kallend 2,150]

Looks like the RCAF is to get some new expensive toys:

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/canada-chooses-f-35a-lightning-for-its-future-fighter-capability-project/?MailingID=867&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Last+Learjet%2C+ERAU+s+Hero+Pilots&utm_campaign=Last+Learjet%2C+ERAU+s+Hero+Pilots%2C+Wednesday%2C+March+30%2C+2022

Personally I think the Rafale and Eurofighter have more panache, but they didn't consult me.

[gowlerk 2,277]

9 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And as far as benefitting from location is concerned (previous discussion in this thread), the US also benefits hugely from its location. It’s expensive to attack us in the numbers necessary to make inroads. Probably too expensive for any nation.

As long as America remains united there will be no enemy able to attack it with ground forces. Your only real enemy is the potential one that could come from within. Canada's greatest potential for invasion obviously comes from the south, but unless fundamentalist first take over the US and then decide that God has given it a new "Manifest Destiny" this is extremely unlikely as there would be very little to gain and a huge problem of defending the new largely empty territory. Canada has had both Liberal and Conservative governments lately. Neither has seen it to be a wise or needed action to enlarge the military at this time. We are a democracy with proportional representation in our parliament. Not so much in our Senate, but it is largely powerless anyway.

[JoeWeber 2,941]

57 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

As long as America remains united there will be no enemy able to attack it with ground forces. Your only real enemy is the potential one that could come from within. Canada's greatest potential for invasion obviously comes from the south, but unless fundamentalist first take over the US and then decide that God has given it a new "Manifest Destiny" this is extremely unlikely as there would be very little to gain and a huge problem of defending the new largely empty territory. Canada has had both Liberal and Conservative governments lately. Neither has seen it to be a wise or needed action to enlarge the military at this time. We are a democracy with proportional representation in our parliament. Not so much in our Senate, but it is largely powerless anyway.

I'll concede you are probably defensive enough.  Circling back to the real point: We need to pay less and Canada needs to pay a lot more. I'm guessing Canadians are happy that we are able to send divisions to the Ukrainian border and plane loads of Javelins etc. to support the Ukrainians incredibly brave defense. I would be happier if Canada, all of our partners actually, had the ability to send equal amounts of military support. You know, like real partners.

[gowlerk 2,277]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

We need to pay less and Canada needs to pay a lot more.

Define need. You are likely to remain disappointed. America and Canada and all nations have allies, not partners. 

[JoeWeber 2,941]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Define need. You are likely to remain disappointed. America and Canada and all nations have allies, not partners. 

need

/niːd/

verb

1.

require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

"I need help now because the Russians are attacking and the Canadians are still busy splitting up yesterdays lunch bill."

[Phil1111 1,183]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

need

/niːd/

verb

1.

require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

"I need help now because the Russians are attacking and the Canadians are still busy splitting up yesterdays lunch bill."

Why do you hate Canada?

Canada spends more than Denmark,Italy,Belgium and Spain. Within a few billion of Germany, the Netherlands.

[gowlerk 2,277]

12 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

need

/niːd/

verb

1.

require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

"I need help now because the Russians are attacking and the Canadians are still busy splitting up yesterdays lunch bill."

But not need in the way that Zelensky needs a no fly zone and/or fresh fighter aircraft then. One man's need is another man's want.

 

[JoeWeber 2,941]

2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Why do you hate Canada?

Canada spends more than Denmark,Italy,Belgium and Spain. Within a few billion of Germany, the Netherlands.

I do not hate Canada. I hate that we carry the burden while Canada and others go cheap. Here is more current data: https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pdf/210611-pr-2021-094-en.pdf

[JoeWeber 2,941]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

But not need in the way that Zelensky needs a no fly zone and/or fresh fighter aircraft then. One man's need is another man's want.

 

You are intentionally mischaracterizing my points.

[kallend 2,150]

I fail to see why they ever agreed on %GDP.

Rich countries are far better able to afford a large % than poor ones, just like Jeff Bezos can afford to spend a greater % of his income on charities than a homeless dude on the streets of LA.

[gowlerk 2,277]

11 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You are intentionally mischaracterizing my points.

Perhaps you are misinterpreting my points. I fully understand what you are trying to say. America spends more of it's wealth proportionally on its military than its allies and particularly Canada does. My point is that the US has become a particularly militaristic nation that spends so much more than it needs to. It is your level of spending which is out of line, not Canada's. 

Every year at budget time the only thing your Congress can agree on is a hefty increase for the military. Get your own house in order before coming after everyone else. In the end the only national defense budget your nation can control is its own.

Edited March 30, 2022 by gowlerk