kirrz 0 #1 April 10, 2006 This Saturday on my 10th jump (4th attempt at AFF level 4) I had to chop. I went to pull the main and it was a hard pull. Tried twice and when it wasn't happening, went straight to emergency procedures and pulled the reserve. It was all fine from there. On the canopy ride down I was more excited about having an awesome jump and finally passing level 4 than feeling anxious or scared or anything like that about being under a reserve - for me it just so happened to be part of the jump. When I got to the ground, I was a bit tripped out by all the attention I got because I had a chop. I know a lot of people were just being nice and encouraging but it was kind of scary that such a big deal was made about the fact that I carried out my emergency procedures the way I was trained to do (there was video). I thought it was really scary that chopping and deploying the reserve with a cool head on low jump numbers was regarded as somewhat extraordinary and not just the normal thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #2 April 10, 2006 Didn't anyone provide a reason why it was a hard pull or test the pull strength required on the ground? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #3 April 10, 2006 QuoteDidn't anyone provide a reason why it was a hard pull... Not yet determined. Quote...or test the pull strength required on the ground? Yes. It was hard. She did the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #4 April 10, 2006 You did not have a "chop". You had no main out to chop, you had a reserve ride. Good job on your EP's though. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #5 April 10, 2006 Quote You did not have a "chop". You had no main out to chop, you have a reserve ride. Good job on your EP's though. Be safe Kirrz, great job on your EP's. No, technically you did not cutaway from a malfunctioned main but you did the right thing with a pull that just wasn't happening. Everybody's making a big deal about it because we all care about the students and we hope this doesn't scare you away. If anything, you've "seen the elephant" and now you know your EP's really do work. By the way dear, you owe beer, but you're Australian so I guess you know that. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirrz 0 #6 April 10, 2006 Quote Didn't anyone provide a reason why it was a hard pull or test the pull strength required on the ground? I don't know the technicalities but as soon as I landed, I was told not to touch the gear. My jumpmaster (Chappo) had a tug at it and couldn't pull it. Then we took the gear into the packing room and one of the packers (I think his name is Josh?) came over and had a tug. He put a bit of strength into it but it deployed the main. -- Thanks everyone for correcting me about the chop/ cutaway thing.. you learn something new every day! -- On a different note.. before I pulled the reserve, the only thing I was scared about was that the situation didn't actually warrant that move, I was making a mistake and that the DZO would get pissed off at me when I landed for unneccessarily pulling it. If you are jumping rented gear (or student gear) and you pull the reserve but when you land it turns out it was completely unneccessary, what are the repercussions? In terms of both pissing people off and the costs of repacks/ whatever gear re-maintenance is needed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #7 April 10, 2006 Quote On a different note.. before I pulled the reserve, the only thing I was scared about was that the situation didn't actually warrant that move, I was making a mistake and that the DZO would get pissed off at me when I landed for unneccessarily pulling it. If you are jumping rented gear (or student gear) and you pull the reserve but when you land it turns out it was completely unneccessary, what are the repercussions? In terms of both pissing people off and the costs of repacks/ whatever gear re-maintenance is needed? There should be no repercussions. Any DZ that would charge you for a repack or somehow blame a student for what they thought was a good decision given their training and their assessment of the situation at the time is not a DZ worth training at, IMO. Now, that's not to say students don't sometimes excecute emergency procedures when perhaps they shouldn't, but then, there's something to be learned from the experience; it's not something that a DZ or its training staff should get angry about. That's one of the reasons you got such great positive reinforcement. Your instructors have been trying to teach you to assess a situation and act quickly based on what you know and how you've been trained, and you did exactly that ... textbook case. People have overthought malfunctions all the way into the ground. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #8 April 10, 2006 QuoteIf you are jumping rented gear (or student gear) and you pull the reserve but when you land it turns out it was completely unneccessary, what are the repercussions? In terms of both pissing people off and the costs of repacks/ whatever gear re-maintenance is needed? You pay for the reserve to be repacked. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian425 0 #9 April 10, 2006 On rented will have to pay. On borrowed gear, you should pay. On student gear, you should NEVER pay. If you have a hard pull, can't find the hackey, etc, go to your EP's. Good to hear that you got lots of support on your choice. They key is you stayed calm, followed what you have been taught and landed safely. If you kept you handles, you really rock. Congrats. The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #10 April 10, 2006 QuoteOn student gear, you should NEVER pay. A few years ago when I did AFF at Skydance in Nor Cal, the DZO would not only make the student pay for the repack, but also make them pay for the handles. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirrz 0 #11 April 10, 2006 How about the freebag? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 4 #12 April 10, 2006 Quote There should be no repercussions. Any DZ that would charge you for a repack or somehow blame a student for what they thought was a good decision given their training and their assessment of the situation at the time is not a DZ worth training at, IMO. Whatif it is Scott Lutz [slyCLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #13 April 10, 2006 Was this a springloaded pilot chute / ripcord PC or was the system a throwaway PC.....?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darnknit 0 #14 April 10, 2006 QuoteWhen I got to the ground, I was a bit tripped out by all the attention I got because I had a chop. I know a lot of people were just being nice and encouraging but it was kind of scary that such a big deal was made about the fact that I carried out my emergency procedures the way I was trained to do until i had my first malfunction, i always wondered if i would make the right decisions and take the appropriate actions in that situation. as such, every trip to the dz involved the nagging question of, 'will i get it right when it happens'. i knew what i was supposed to do, and how to decide if my main was landable, but i still wasn't SURE i would do the right thing until it happened. perhaps the people who were paying attention to you either remembered or were experiencing the same feeling i had. QuoteI thought it was really scary that chopping and deploying the reserve with a cool head on low jump numbers was regarded as somewhat extraordinary and not just the normal thing to do. ever see a parent the day their child took their first few steps? the congratulations you recieved was probably just empathetic pride, and vicarious exhiliration. blue stuff, p.j. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #15 April 10, 2006 Quote QuoteIf you are jumping rented gear (or student gear) and you pull the reserve but when you land it turns out it was completely unneccessary, what are the repercussions? In terms of both pissing people off and the costs of repacks/ whatever gear re-maintenance is needed? You pay for the reserve to be repacked. Be safe Ed Given the cost of AFF jumps, the cost of a repack damn well aught to be waived even if the student deployed a reserve inappropriately. Its reasonable to expect that it might happen with a student. Making them pay for the repack is lame. Big time lame. Regular jumper on rented gear is different.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PrairieDoug 0 #16 April 10, 2006 QuoteA few years ago when I did AFF at Skydance in Nor Cal, the DZO would not only make the student pay for the repack, but also make them pay for the handles. I think this approach sends the wrong message to students... "my wallet is more important than your life." Some students might be reluctant to execute emergency procedures because of the possible expense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyinseivLP2 0 #17 April 10, 2006 In a situtiation like that never let anything other than you safety be a factor in your decision. Maybe you will have to pay for a repack, but you are alive. When you have your own gear you might lose your main or your freebag(i have lost both.) It sucked but my other option was much worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #18 April 10, 2006 QuoteWas this a springloaded pilot chute / ripcord PC or was the system a throwaway PC.....?? Chest-mount ripcord/spring-loaded PC/SOS system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #19 April 11, 2006 QuoteMaking them pay for the repack is lame. Big time lame. I agree. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kwmontreal 0 #20 April 11, 2006 A couple of things. You did an excellent job!! congratulations!! I teach students that what you decide to do up in the blue will never be wrong. You did exactly what you were taught to do (give your instructors a hug/handshake/TY), buy the rigger a refreshment. We will not second guess what you did and why you do it because: A) we weren't there, and, B) You can never truly duplicate 100% what exactly happened. You will get a debrief and different possibilities that could have happened (for educational purposes only). No student should ever be charged for a reserve repack or any other associated cost (pilot chute/freebag), its part of doing business. Onca again..... Great Job!! Jump Safe. Kent----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUMP SAFE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #21 April 11, 2006 Are you saying she should pull out her pilot chute on the ground to test how hard it will pull after she has it repacked?Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flygirl719 0 #22 April 12, 2006 Quote I thought it was really scary that chopping and deploying the reserve with a cool head on low jump numbers was regarded as somewhat extraordinary and not just the normal thing to do. I just hope that I can keep my cool as you did. I hear you just do your EP's, like your brain turns on the right switch because you practiced. What EXACTLY went through your mind after you tried to pull twice? Was it like, pull, shit, pull again, shit, PULL RESERVE or what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #23 April 12, 2006 Quote QuoteOn student gear, you should NEVER pay. A few years ago when I did AFF at Skydance in Nor Cal, the DZO would not only make the student pay for the repack, but also make them pay for the handles. Be safe Ed That is just wrong... A student does not pack, nor maintain the gear... Except for poor body position, or pulling the wrong handles in a panicked student state, there is very little a student can do to change the outcome of how well the main works... I can't remember the last student chop at our DZ (I remember it, but not well enough to tell you what happened) - and we have hundreds of AFF jumps a month, and 20+ student rigs on the shelf... Well maintained gear and good packers = very infrequent chops... With the DZ profit nearly at a repack for every AFF jump... I would never support a DZ that charges students for any reserve rides on a student jump... Also, our DZ teaches the student to throw the handles, and if you land with them, you probably would be lectured for not doing what instructed in the AFF program... Honestly, I don't know if any students at our DZ have been charged, so I might be putting my foot in my mouth, but I still can have an opinion. Now - if a DZ has rental equipment that students are allowed to pack (not allowed at our DZ unless the student has to work on the packing requirement for the A card) - then more responsibility can be put on the student for the times they pack... But if a line was broken, or a line over, or a bag lock, or anything, especially if DZ employees packed the main - then I still think any DZO that would pass the cost to the student just sucks... That is like a city bus not being well maintained or just being well used - and breaking down on the road, and charging just the riders on the bus at the very moment it broke 100% of the repair bills... Or renting a car from a rental company and charging the customers for damage done to an engine by the maintenance employee who did not do the proper preventive maintenance. If you are going to rent out equipment - you should not charge the customer for problems unless there is clear cut liability... An experienced jumper not stowing the brake lines correctly = liability. A student with a proven hard pull = no liability. This post probably should be in the speaker's corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kirrz 0 #24 April 12, 2006 QuoteQuote I thought it was really scary that chopping and deploying the reserve with a cool head on low jump numbers was regarded as somewhat extraordinary and not just the normal thing to do. I just hope that I can keep my cool as you did. I hear you just do your EP's, like your brain turns on the right switch because you practiced. What EXACTLY went through your mind after you tried to pull twice? Was it like, pull, shit, pull again, shit, PULL RESERVE or what? I tend to be pretty good under pressure so I wasn't really panicked at all. It was just kinda part of the jump. For me personally, I know there is a chance of a total malfunction but I just look at it like the chance of getting hit by a bus - it exists, but not enough to stop you from leaving it in the back of your mind. What exactly went through my mind? That was such a cool jump! Yay! I finally passed! (tried to pull ripcord) Wait a sec...I can't be that weak. (tried to pull ripcord with both hands) Am I being weak? Is this what a hard pull is? What if I pull the reserve and everyone gets pissed off? Fuck it. (pulled reserve ripcord - parachute opens) Sweet. All sorted. What an awesome jump! I finally passed! And hey, I'm under a reserve. I wonder if anyone will notice the white parachute. This is cool. How ironic. We changed rigs right before the jump. And I got video on this jump so I could take it home and show dad skydiving's not as dangerous as he thinks... I think it's different for everyone but if it ever happens, just stay cool. You know (whether you believe it or not) how to save your own life as best as you can. If you didn't, your subconscious wouldn't let you jump off a plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #25 April 12, 2006 Quote(tried to pull ripcord with both hands) You can reach your main pc with both hands? And how did that work for your body position while still in freefall? Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kirrz 0 #24 April 12, 2006 QuoteQuote I thought it was really scary that chopping and deploying the reserve with a cool head on low jump numbers was regarded as somewhat extraordinary and not just the normal thing to do. I just hope that I can keep my cool as you did. I hear you just do your EP's, like your brain turns on the right switch because you practiced. What EXACTLY went through your mind after you tried to pull twice? Was it like, pull, shit, pull again, shit, PULL RESERVE or what? I tend to be pretty good under pressure so I wasn't really panicked at all. It was just kinda part of the jump. For me personally, I know there is a chance of a total malfunction but I just look at it like the chance of getting hit by a bus - it exists, but not enough to stop you from leaving it in the back of your mind. What exactly went through my mind? That was such a cool jump! Yay! I finally passed! (tried to pull ripcord) Wait a sec...I can't be that weak. (tried to pull ripcord with both hands) Am I being weak? Is this what a hard pull is? What if I pull the reserve and everyone gets pissed off? Fuck it. (pulled reserve ripcord - parachute opens) Sweet. All sorted. What an awesome jump! I finally passed! And hey, I'm under a reserve. I wonder if anyone will notice the white parachute. This is cool. How ironic. We changed rigs right before the jump. And I got video on this jump so I could take it home and show dad skydiving's not as dangerous as he thinks... I think it's different for everyone but if it ever happens, just stay cool. You know (whether you believe it or not) how to save your own life as best as you can. If you didn't, your subconscious wouldn't let you jump off a plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #25 April 12, 2006 Quote(tried to pull ripcord with both hands) You can reach your main pc with both hands? And how did that work for your body position while still in freefall? Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
