Woke is a Joke

[tkhayes 348]

4 hours ago, base698 said:

MLK supported a unifying vision of humanity and was not down with identity politics as they are today in 2024 (or 2022 I should say).  MLK addressed economic and racial issues, his work didn't explicitly incorporate concepts like intersectionality or modern discussions around gender and LGBTQ+ rights. He explicitly called out "content of your character".  Whereas the woke crowd says you can't judge people that come from disadvantaged backgrounds.  

From a practical standpoint when you allow intersectionality and stack ranking oppressed groups (black, gay, trans) vs (latino, cis) for example it dilutes the whole conversation around legitimate racial inequalities and grievances.

I love how you can cherry pick 'content of your character' as if that is the only thing MLK ever said, ever talked about, ever campaigned for, ever advocated for, ever cared about.....

[billvon 3,085]

1 hour ago, tkhayes said:

I love how you can cherry pick 'content of your character' as if that is the only thing MLK ever said, ever talked about, ever campaigned for, ever advocated for, ever cared about.....

Winsor thinks the same.  Keep in mind that for most people, that's all they've ever heard.  And FOX News etc plays to that audience.

So right wingers say "Well MLK supported black people but he wasn't WOKE!" - despite the fact that being alert to injustice is what drove most of his life.

They say "well MLK would never support reparations!" - despite him giving a speech that ended with "we are coming to DC to get our checks."

They say "well MLK didn't talk about intersectionality!" - despite him being considered the father of intersectionality by many civil rights leaders.

They say "well MLK wasn't a socialist!" - despite him saying "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic."

He, like Jesus, is trotted out whenever the right wants to claim some sort of moral superiority; whatever their latest agenda entails, that agenda is conflated with the dozen words of his "I have a dream!" speech that they have heard, and left at that.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

13 hours ago, billvon said:

Winsor thinks the same.  Keep in mind that for most people, that's all they've ever heard.  And FOX News etc plays to that audience.

So right wingers say "Well MLK supported black people but he wasn't WOKE!" - despite the fact that being alert to injustice is what drove most of his life.

They say "well MLK would never support reparations!" - despite him giving a speech that ended with "we are coming to DC to get our checks."

They say "well MLK didn't talk about intersectionality!" - despite him being considered the father of intersectionality by many civil rights leaders.

They say "well MLK wasn't a socialist!" - despite him saying "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic."

He, like Jesus, is trotted out whenever the right wants to claim some sort of moral superiority; whatever their latest agenda entails, that agenda is conflated with the dozen words of his "I have a dream!" speech that they have heard, and left at that.

Another few years and the majority of Republicans wouldn't be able to say what the full name of MLK is.

[turtlespeed 226]

On 7/10/2021 at 6:11 PM, jakee said:

And yet you have no problem being next to those whose lack of diversity made it easier for them to be hired.

Given your posting history I am not in the least bit surprised you think that.

Nothing about diversity requires competence.

Diversity shoud be secondary at best.

Competent and reliable

THEN - maybe what your feels are.

 

ETA - Imagine you are getting on a jump plane - and all you know about your brand new pilot is that they were chosen because of their diversity value.

Imagine your new rigger was forced on you - no choice to be had - and they were chosen soley on their diversity value.

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by turtlespeed
added comment

[SkyDekker 1,465]

2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Nothing about diversity requires competence.

Diversity shoud be secondary at best.

Competent and reliable

THEN - maybe what your feels are.

Except when diversity is properly managed it leads to higher level of competence of a team. Better problem solving, earlier detection of problems, quicker implementation of mitigants.

Even Winsor stated he wouldn't higher trouble makers even if they were competent.

Would you hire a competent and reliable worker who so annoys the rest of your employees that their engagement and output drops by 50%?

Yeah didn't think so.

[turtlespeed 226]

Just now, SkyDekker said:

Except when diversity is properly managed it leads to higher level of competence of a team. Better problem solving, earlier detection of problems, quicker implementation of mitigants.

Even Winsor stated he wouldn't higher trouble makers even if they were competent.

Would you hire a competent and reliable worker who so annoys the rest of your employees that their engagement and output drops by 50%?

Yeah didn't think so.

Part of reliability is being a team player.  We aren't talking about entry level jobs, so no; However, their resume' would reflect thier performance in the past.  Interviews and background checks are there as well.

Some slip through the cracks - but my statement is still valid.

Diversity shuold not be the focus or the driving factor.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

Part of reliability is being a team player. 

No it isn't. Unless you just make things up.

[turtlespeed 226]

Just now, SkyDekker said:

No it isn't. Unless you just make things up.

Tell me you've never actually run a company, and had to do the hiring, firing, and day to day management without telling me . . .

 

[billvon 3,085]

32 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Nothing about diversity requires competence.

Nothing about homogenity requires competence either.

But all things considered, a more diverse workforce is better (more creative, more resilient, more productive) than a less diverse workforce.

The goal is not "hire the dumb black guy so we can say we're diverse."  The goal is make sure there are no barriers to the black guy (or the poor guy, or the woman, or the gay man, or the foreigner) who wants to work there, and is qualified.

Quote

ETA - Imagine you are getting on a jump plane - and all you know about your brand new pilot is that they were chosen because of their diversity value.

If they are just as competent as any other jump pilot there?  No worries.

Now imagine that the only reason they were hired is that they were white, straight and male like the DZO.  And the DZO decided that was a good choice because he dislikes gays, and therefore the gay guy would not be a team player.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

31 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Tell me you've never actually run a company, and had to do the hiring, firing, and day to day management without telling me . . .

 

I mean, my staff runs in the hundreds.

None of them will define reliable as "being a team player".

[jakee 1,566]

55 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Nothing about diversity requires competence.

Diversity shoud be secondary at best.

Competent and reliable

THEN - maybe what your feels are.

Mr Bleach is back!!! Ah mate how have you been? I'm genuinely so happy to see the UV treatments haven't killed you. This really is the SC greatest hits reunion tour.

56 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

ETA - Imagine you are getting on a jump plane - and all you know about your brand new pilot is that they were chosen because of their diversity value.

Imagine your new rigger was forced on you - no choice to be had - and they were chosen soley on their diversity value.

Of all the Turtlespeed things you've ever said this must be one of the most Turtley. I mean, it's genuinely insane, isn't it? It bares no resemblance whatsoever to the reality that any of us live in. Frankly, it's verging dangerously close to sounding like you think it's impossible to find a diverse person who is also competent. 

[normiss 867]

6 minutes ago, jakee said:

Mr Bleach is back!!! Ah mate how have you been? I'm genuinely so happy to see the UV treatments haven't killed you. This really is the SC greatest hits reunion tour.

Of all the Turtlespeed things you've ever said this must be one of the most Turtley. I mean, it's genuinely insane, isn't it? It bares no resemblance whatsoever to the reality that any of us live in. Frankly, it's verging dangerously close to sounding like you think it's impossible to find a diverse person who is also competent. 

The presumption is they are wholly unqualified because of their inclusion in the DEI programs.

"XXX people don't have the skills we're seeking, those are DEI hires"

It's hateful and insulting.

[billvon 3,085]

34 minutes ago, normiss said:

"XXX people don't have the skills we're seeking, those are DEI hires"

It's hateful and insulting.

Yep.  And in many ways "DEI hire" has become the new dog whistle for "black."

I find it interesting that right wingers are always nonplussed when they hear that JD Vance was a DEI college admission.  "But . . . but . . . he's not black . . . ."

[JoeWeber 2,852]

49 minutes ago, jakee said:

Mr Bleach is back!!! Ah mate how have you been? I'm genuinely so happy to see the UV treatments haven't killed you. This really is the SC greatest hits reunion tour.

Of all the Turtlespeed things you've ever said this must be one of the most Turtley. I mean, it's genuinely insane, isn't it? It bares no resemblance whatsoever to the reality that any of us live in. Frankly, it's verging dangerously close to sounding like you think it's impossible to find a diverse person who is also competent. 

It simply much easier to be a competent and qualified conservative: the ideas are much less complex.

[olofscience 489]

12 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

It simply much easier to be a competent and qualified conservative: the ideas are much less complex.

I've also seen it dozens of times here, they think they're in the lead in an argument, not realising they've been lapped...

[turtlespeed 226]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Nothing about homogenity requires competence either.

But all things considered, a more diverse workforce is better (more creative, more resilient, more productive) than a less diverse workforce.

The goal is not "hire the dumb black guy so we can say we're diverse."  The goal is make sure there are no barriers to the black guy (or the poor guy, or the woman, or the gay man, or the foreigner) who wants to work there, and is qualified.

If they are just as competent as any other jump pilot there?  No worries.

Now imagine that the only reason they were hired is that they were white, straight and male like the DZO.  And the DZO decided that was a good choice because he dislikes gays, and therefore the gay guy would not be a team player.

The goal means nothing when you pass over a more qualified worker for "Meh" because of racist views.  

RE: Now imagine that the only reason they were hired is that they were white, straight and male like the DZO.  And the DZO decided that was a good choice because he dislikes gays, and therefore the gay guy would not be a team player.

That would be just as wrong.

Starting from a place where the sexuality or skin color are the priority is also just as racist and sexist as the example you gave above.

 

[turtlespeed 226]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

It simply much easier to be a competent and qualified conservative: the ideas are much less complex.

They aren't less complex.  They are less dramatic, more logical, more straightforward, and less dependent on feels.

[normiss 867]

2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

They aren't less complex.  They are less dramatic, more logical, more straightforward, and less dependent on feels.

bullshit

[turtlespeed 226]

4 minutes ago, normiss said:

bullshit

Thank you for proving my point with your one word answer.

[jakee 1,566]

11 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

They aren't less complex.  They are less dramatic, more logical, more straightforward, and less dependent on feels.

Then why are we discussing imaginary situations in imaginary TurtleWorld instead of dealing with reality?

[billvon 3,085]

33 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

The goal means nothing when you pass over a more qualified worker for "Meh" because of racist views.  

That would be just as wrong.

So hiring someone based on his race - good or bad - is wrong.  We should avoid that.

And barriers to hiring based on race (or gender, or sexual orientation, or religion) are just as bad.  We should work to end them.

Looks like you've just made an argument for DEI.

[billvon 3,085]

35 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

They aren't less complex.  

They are far less complex.

As an example, reporters once asked republicans what the definition of "woman" was.  They could not give a coherent answer.  One said "anyone with a uterus."  The reporter then asked if a woman who had had a hysterectomy was still a woman.  The conservative could not answer - because the question had become too complex.

Now, keep in mind that this is a question that conservatives mock liberals for not being able to answer.

Many conservatives prefer simple answers, and feel that anyone with a more complex answer is a liberal ivory tower elite (or some similar pejorative.)  But keep in mind that to any complex problem (and most of our problems today are complex) there is an answer that is simple, straightforward - and wrong.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

55 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

The goal means nothing when you pass over a more qualified worker for "Meh" because of racist views.  

more qualified defined how? More education? More experience? Better team player? Fits better on the corporate golf team?

[jakee 1,566]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

The goal means nothing when you pass over a more qualified worker for "Meh" because of racist views.  

There goes that thing about assuming a minority will be a 'meh' employee again. I think there's a word for that.

I also love this idea that you always know who the most qualified applicant is. Like, why even bother interviewing, right? Hiring the best talent is easy! Like when the Mercedes F1 team announced a diversity initiative the trolls moaned about how they should always just pick the most qualified candidate. When they advertise for graduate positions they're probably going to have 50 applications from people with fesh first class degrees from Cambridge, Oxford, UCL and other top engineering schools throughout the country and the continent. Which one would be the most qualified?

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Then why are we discussing imaginary situations in imaginary TurtleWorld instead of dealing with reality?

Because you have to be able to get it.