Wing loading for a first rig

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey everyone, I know this topic comes up all the time and I've gone through about 30 different threads to get the answer iI'm looking for.

First here's some info about me.
Done 1 Tandem and 3 IAD's, 3 PFF's.
I've stood up all my landings from day 1 on a Navigator 280 (Huge I know). I weigh 115lbs, so when i talk about buying a 130sq/ft canopy, people jump and say too small without first realizing my exit weight (130-135ish).

I'm looking to get my own gear to sdave on rental costs. I fully plan on talking to my JM tomorrow, but I wanted some advice, obviously there's a few people here that have had this situation before. From what I'm gathering, a beginner rig, depending on canopy control of the individual would be good around 1:1. I am looking at buying new or possible a very lightly used rig (under 100 jumps). So here are a few questions:

1: Is there a huge difference in a wing loading of 1:1 and 1.1:1? I am loking at an Aerodyne Pilot 124 vs a 135.

2: I am looking at an Aerodyne Pilot, is it a good beginner canopy loaded at 1:1 or no?

3: I'm mostly concerned with being safe and I know this will prompt comments saying go big, but in 100 - 200 jumps or so I don't want to have to downsize already. I want something fun, yet still relatively safety oriented.

4: Harness: I am very small 5'8" and 115 lbs and I'm looking for advice on a rig that is built small. I know they come in sizes, but some seem to lok bigger and bulkier than thers, yet i'm sure this is directly related to canopy size. I don't want a massive rig that's crazy heavy. I like the Icon and Javelin odyssey.

I did also see a thread that said under 100 jumps 1:1, 100-200 1.1:1 etc. I just don't want to go too small, but don't want to have a giant rig that looks odd on me.

Now just to re-itterate, I'm not trying to find the smallest canopy I can for a beginner. I'm simply asking if a 1:1 ratio is accurate for me to use in 20-30 jumps. It's not something I plan to use during my PFF or before I get my A CoP.

Thanks for the advice!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[davelepka 4]

Think about a 170 for a first canopy. Make sure you work your way down to that level with a few successful jumps each on a 230, 210, and 190. That would be smart.

[skybytch 273]

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I weigh 115lbs, so when i talk about buying a 130sq/ft canopy, people jump and say too small without first realizing my exit weight (130-135ish).

They may realize your exit weight but they know that wingloading doesn't "scale" across sizes. Smaller canopies have shorter lines and less drag; a 1.0 wingloading on a 135 is going to be a LOT different (faster, more responsive) than a 1.0 wingloading on a 210.

Based solely on your exit weight, I'd suggest no smaller than a 150 for your first main. Do a search here for Brian Germain's canopy sizing chart; IIRC he'd recommend a 170.

A Pilot is a great first main, as is a Spectre, a Safire2, a Sabre2, a Triathlon...

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I'm mostly concerned with being safe and I know this will prompt comments saying go big, but in 100 - 200 jumps or so I don't want to have to downsize already.

Why not? If you buy your first main used you can put 100-200 jumps on it and sell it for close to what you paid for it. You can easily downsize one main canopy size in whatever container you get (assuming that it was built for the size main you are downsizing from).

And, y'never know, you may find that you DON'T want to go faster (so you won't want to downsize) when you have 100-200 jumps...

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

You know, that is honestly some of the best advice I've gotten. Usually people take a question like that and wrap it around to say that I'm trying to see how small I can go without killing myself.

I definately have intentions to jumps canopies in between the 280 and a 135. This is why I made note to say in 20-30 jumps. I have no intention whatsoever to jump a 135 on my first solo dive after PFF. A guy at our DZ has a 104 and he's about 150lbs. I know that's a bigger wing loading and a high performance canopy but damn that thing moves. I thought the 280 came in pretty quick, but then I think about my flight training and realize forward speed generates lift, and if you came in nice and gently, the canopy would probably stall. SO my frame of reference for speed is vague since I'm so new.

My main idea in asking this was to minimize costs, skydiving is not nearly the cheapest sport I've gotten in to, so I don't want to keep swapping mains and containers. I say this now, but I really don't plan to become a speed freak. I just want a rig I can go jump a few times on weekends during the summer, nothing special. This is why I don't want to swap rigs. I also saw that resale values on rigs and chutes are pretty good, but I'm really paranoid of used gear. I see people selling canopies with 1200 jumps and I think, this is a car cover by now, no? I'm sure that is incorrect but that's my mentality.

Thankls again for the info

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Ron 10]

I would not go below 150 for a first canopy.

Now if you can borrow/rent a 150 for 20 or so jumps you would most likely be fine under 135. I would not recomend anything smaller as canopies and air do not scale.

The same WL under different sized canopies do not give the same performance. Drag will be greater under the larger canopy and a smaller canopy will turn faster do to shorter lines.

Also you need to take into account the density altitude of where you jump. The higher in elevation you go the thinner the air is and the faster a canopy will be. So a canopy loaded at 1.0 in Zhills, FL. (altitude about 32 feet Above Sea Level) will be easier to fly than the same canopy in Denver, CO (Almost a mile Above Sea level).

Temperature also plays a part as does humdity...But lets focus on Altitude since it is the biggest factor and the easiest to know since the others change.

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I am looking at an Aerodyne Pilot, is it a good beginner canopy loaded at 1:1 or no?

Its fine.

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I'm mostly concerned with being safe and I know this will prompt comments saying go big, but in 100 - 200 jumps or so I don't want to have to downsize already. I want something fun, yet still relatively safety oriented.

Safer is always the better choice. If you get a canopy that is a little too big you will actually be much better than getting a canopy a little to small and hoping to grow into it.

A broken ankle will really hurt your skydiving career and you are more likely to get hurt under the smaller canopy all other things being the same.

"The race is not always to the swift, but the steady"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mdrejhon 8]

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Hey everyone, I know this topic comes up all the time and I've gone through about 30 different threads to get the answer iI'm looking for.Hello Chris.

I'll let your instructors cover your gear issue (just make sure to pass all the good online answers through your instructors!)

It's nice to hear from another fellow Ottawa skydiver. Send me a PM if you need a roadtrip buddy to share transportation costs to your dropzone Mile High Parachuting -- I'm between jobs, and like to save costs by carpooling. I'm not jumping as much, but am doing a couple of skydives here and there. This goes to any of you Ottawa skydivers. I'm a downtown dweller who don't own a car, so that's a free jump ticket (for those who's doing the driving!).

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[justinb138 0]

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A Pilot is a great first main, as is a Spectre, a Safire2, a Sabre2, a Triathlon...

Silhouette....

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[hjumper33 0]

I found the key when buying my first canopy to be progression. I had an admittedly fast downsizing progression during student training, but there is no way ever I would go from a 280 to a 135 without jumping AT LEAST 3 or 4 canopy sizes in between. I did 2 jumps on a 290 and then went to a 200 and that was a decent size jump. At about jump 20 I was at 170 and then 30 a borrowed 150 which led me to be comfortable enough to buy a sabre 150 as my first main at a loading of 1.3:1. Would I recommend that to anyone else now that I have read more about the sport and been told what an idiot I was to downsize that fast...not a chance. To sum it all up, spend the extra $20 for the next 10 jumps or more to try out some sizes in between. PD has a great demo program.

[Feeblemind 1]

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I weigh 115lbs, so when i talk about buying a 130sq/ft canopy, people jump and say too small without first realizing my exit weight (130-135ish).

They may realize your exit weight but they know that wingloading doesn't "scale" across sizes. Smaller canopies have shorter lines and less drag; a 1.0 wingloading on a 135 is going to be a LOT different (faster, more responsive) than a 1.0 wingloading on a 210.

Based solely on your exit weight, I'd suggest no smaller than a 150 for your first main. Do a search here for Brian Germain's canopy sizing chart; IIRC he'd recommend a 170.

A Pilot is a great first main, as is a Spectre, a Safire2, a Sabre2, a Triathlon...

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I'm mostly concerned with being safe and I know this will prompt comments saying go big, but in 100 - 200 jumps or so I don't want to have to downsize already.

Why not? If you buy your first main used you can put 100-200 jumps on it and sell it for close to what you paid for it. You can easily downsize one main canopy size in whatever container you get (assuming that it was built for the size main you are downsizing from).

And, y'never know, you may find that you DON'T want to go faster (so you won't want to downsize) when you have 100-200 jumps...

Chris,

I read your reply and you would be wise to heed the advice of the Bytch. Yes, the majority of her recommendations are on the conservative side. I have been following her and other mentor’s advice through my progression. I would hope you would buy a larger canopy and put the 100-200 jumps on it before downsizing rather than the 20-30 like another suggested. Not meant to say ones advice is better than another by any means. I went from a 230 on student status (I demoed different canopies during this time to see what I preferred) to a pilot 210 (purchased new) at around 100 jumps and then to a pilot 188 at 385 jumps (yes, I kept my 210 for awhile until I was comfortable with the 188). I downsized during the winter when there is normally a breeze and the air density is higher. This allowed me time to get used to the canopy and get semi comfortable with it before it got hot and the air density dropped. I was educated by my mentors that it was better to progress slowly and carefully rather than to be on crutches or in a wheel chair watching everyone else jump.


Good luck,

Feeble

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[MarkM 0]

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My main idea in asking this was to minimize costs, skydiving is not nearly the cheapest sport I've gotten in to, so I don't want to keep swapping mains and containers.

Swapping mains and containers doesn't have to be an expense. You can buy a used 150, jump it for 100-200 jumps, sell it and then buy a new 130 and just end up paying the depreciation on the 200 jumps you made on the 150.

And containers can fit more than 1 size canopy, so if you don't want to swap containers you can buy one new that'll fit both a 150 and 130.

For example, my container fit my 160 I started jumping with, fits really well the 150 I still jump with and will work with the 130 I'll eventually downsize too. Swapping mains was cheap and my container will last for years yet.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks guys,

From what I'm seeing here, I'm going to leave it up to my JM. I've pretty much decided to avoid looking at gear at this point. I learnt alot that I didn't realize, such as: smaller canopy loaded the same as a bigger canopy will generally be faster due to shorter lines and less drag. Never even considered that. I'm going to get y 30 jumps or so and assess where I am at that point wiht my JM.

As I said I really appreciate the advice, I now have a better understanding of what I'm looking at. I simply like to be as informed as possible before doing something, and getting the info from multiple sources gives me a somewhat unbiased and broader opinion base. That being said, my JM has the final word. I'll be in the sky tomorrow, so thanks again everyone!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[riggerrob 643]

... but in 100 - 200 jumps or so I don't want to have to downsize already. I want something fun, yet still relatively safety oriented.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Everybody gets bored with their first canopy after 200 jumps.
By then you will be looking for new challenges and your boring old main will be compatible with your new wingsuit.

Hint: All wingsuit instructors recommend a boring canopy for your first few wing suit jumps.

[riggerrob 643]

... but I'm really paranoid of used gear. I see people selling canopies with 1200 jumps and I think, this is a car cover by now, no?

Chris

[twibbles 0]

Hello,
this is what i did for progression, first off, talk to your instructors, this is what i did, but things might be different for you. I suppose it serves to put things in perspective for skinny bastards like us

I'm 5'7", 120lbs. +20lbs gear, +4lbs lead.
Skymaster 290, 8 jumps static line.
Navigator 260, 7 jumps, AFF
Skymaster 230, 17-ish jumps.
Spectre 170, 30-ish jumps
Triathlon 150, jump 66 onwards.

To be honest, i'm very happy with the 150. I won't have the skill to get the best performance out of it for a very long time, and docile enough that i won't hurt too bad when i mess up and go smack into the ground. What more can i ask for? I've seen amazing things done with big student canopies with enough skill.

And remember, you're going to have to wear some weight to keep level with other people in freefall, and that can easily bring you one size up to get the same loading.

Eugene

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

[Guest 1010]

(warning - newbie post.) I always saw the warnings against smaller canopies in the terms of biffing/femering in, and balanced that against how often/easy it was for me to stand-up my landings.

But it seems to me that smaller canopies also behave faster and more dramatically during malfunctions than larger canopies, and I don't hear about that as being an additional risk of jumping small canopies.

For me, it'll be time to downsize when I've wrung all there is to get from my Spectre 190 @1.1. After I can fly the total hell out of it, then downsize. That's a few hundred jumps away yet.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

Greatadvice guys. I now have no intention of going to a 1 30 nor a 150. I imagine I'll work my way down to 190 or 170 ish and probably hold there for a while. Then, when I'm ready for amy gear, I'll probably look at a 150. Only time will tell for now.

My biggest problem is canopy progression. I'm currently jumping a Navigator 280 and that is the smallest student canopy my home DZ has. We're a pretty small DZ too. I imagine once I'm solo certified they may be able to work something out for canopy progression, or maybe I can rent gear from another DZ.

That leads me to this question, once I'm off student status and solo certified, can I jump at other DZ's? I have a couple other DZ's in the area, some are bigger, but they are no closer than 1.5 hours away. Currently I jump 30 mins from my home.

I guess this is what started my current question, I'm not sure at this point what my canopy progression will be after PFF.

Back out on Wednesday to continue PFF!

Blue Skies!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Guest 1010]

>That leads me to this question, once I'm off student status and solo certified, can I jump at other DZ's?

I'd just call the other DZs and ask them. In the conversation I'd also ask if they have student rigs smaller than a 280.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[mdrejhon 8]

Hey Chris-Ottawa

Fun watching your landing Wednesday .... Needless to say, a few firsts were made! Nice to meet you...

FYI, my canopy progression was the following
(not a recommendation; you have to go by your instructors.):

EZ-384 (Jumps #1-4 tandems)
Manta 288 (Jump #5-#25)
Sabre 230 (Jumps #26-#28)
Sabre 190 (Jumps #29-#56)
Sabre 170 (Jump #57-58), rental
Sabre 170 (Jumped #59 to date), my own rig

I intend to stay on my 170 for quite some time, at least for the rest of this year... Note, that I am a heavier guy than you are -- I am approx 195 pounds exit weight.

Jumping a 170 after a winter layover for the first time in 2 months into ZERO WIND conditions feels intense (I stood that up fine)

I'm getting used to it now, as I slowly pick up my jumping pace. (Looking forward to making 10+ jumps this weekend at Skydive Gananoque or Skydive Burnaby -- probably Gananoque, as I'm carpooling)

[Broke 0]

Listen to skybitch. She give sound advice.
Here is what PD has to say about wing loading vs line sets.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf
Here are also from PDs web site a couple of articles by Scott Miller


http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing2.pdf

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

A few firsts as in landing on an old concrete runway? I am loaded really light;y under that 280. It was pretty windy that day too, hovering around 12-16 km/h. When I saw I was coning down over the concrete I was a bit worried. But needless to say, once my feet touched, that fear turned to relief. Now I just have to get rid of this rain and i can continue jumping!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[mdrejhon 8]

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A few firsts as in landing on an old concrete runway? I am loaded really light;y under that 280. It was pretty windy that day too, hovering around 12-16 km/h. When I saw I was coning down over the concrete I was a bit worried. But needless to say, once my feet touched, that fear turned to relief. Now I just have to get rid of this rain and i can continue jumping!

Yeah, you sure had a real soft standup landing on concrete -- but that it was also your first full freefall too (if I remember correctly!).

You were on radio, but I'm not aware of the details that led up to your landing on concrete -- but I share your fear and relief as a spectator.

[freeflysteve 0]

Hi
I think you are asking great questions.
My first canopy i bought i had 67 jumps spectre 150 and new jav odyssey rig,my that first jump on it was amazing and the speed coming in on landing just surprised the hell out of me!.
I had gradually downsized but all gear was hired and well used so with a NEW zp canopy the difference was phenomanal.
I love skydiving for the freefall and to land safely means i can do it again.
If you buy a new rig and say have a 170 in it that can be downsized to 150 or even 150 down to 135 then you will be able to sell canopy without too much loss and get something suitable in that size range.
I still have original rg and use it for wing suit so maybe that is another option.
Talk to people (instructors) at your DZ and i am sure you will get correct advice cos they want to see you time and time again with a happy smiling face.
Blue Skies
Stephan

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!