The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[ryoder 1,590]

In-custody death reports under former Maryland medical examiner to be reviewed after he testified Chauvin did not kill George Floyd

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

Hi folks,

Interesting results:  Study: Body-Worn Camera Research Shows Drop In Police Use Of Force : NPR

The video collected from the body worn cameras of the police officers involved in Floyd's arrest showed his death from a variety of angles and prosecution and defense attorneys used the video extensively as they argued the case.

Jerry Baumchen

[yoink 321]

On 4/23/2021 at 5:12 PM, mistercwood said:

Jesus. I don't know what else people were expecting the cop to do, there was literally no time to de-escalate anything, he'd barely even arrived.

I'm all for an investigation, but I don't see the officer in the wrong here, procedurally. It's a shitty, shitty outcome for everyone though.

There’s been a shit amount of armchair quarterbacking going on around this case before any evidence was seen. Including in here.

 

Your post sums up my feelings on it, having seen the video. Tragic but justifiable use of force.

 

[JoeWeber 2,836]

31 minutes ago, yoink said:

There’s been a shit amount of armchair quarterbacking going on around this case before any evidence was seen. Including in here.

 

Your post sums up my feelings on it, having seen the video. Tragic but justifiable use of force.

 

How does the same situation play out in a world where the cops aren't armed and free to shoot? 

[sfzombie13 324]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

How does the same situation play out in a world where the cops aren't armed and free to shoot? 

cop tackles the girl, subdues her, and gets a cut on his arm.  the ambulance that was dispatched since every call involving a fight could be life threatening, has a crew that attends to the cop, the girl, and the victim if she got stabbed or cut before the cop tackled the attacker.  unless extremely unlucky or a very savage attack, everyone lives.

Edited April 28, 2021 by sfzombie13
needed a 'b'

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

cop tackles the girl, subdues her, and gets a cut on his arm.  the ambulance that was dispatched since every call involving a fight could be life threatening, has a crew that attends to the cop, the girl, and the victim if she got stabbed or cut before the cop tackled the attacker.  unless extremely unlucky or a very savage attack, everyone lives.

"In the year up to March 2016, police in England and Wales only fired seven bullets. (Although these government figures do not include accidental shots, shooting out tires, or killing dangerous or injured animals.)...

The Metropolitan Police carried out some 3,300 deployments involving firearms in 2016. They didn't fire a single shot at a suspect.

It's a world away from the United States, where cops killed 1,092 people in 2016, according to figures compiled by The Guardian....

Some police have complained that officers are reluctant to sign up for firearms training because they fear being dragged through years of lengthy investigations in the unlikely event they have to use their weapon.

"Officers have seen what happens to their colleagues who have had to use lethal force to protect the public," outgoing Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe told reporters earlier this year. "Increasingly, they seem to be portrayed as suspects, based, I can only assume, on an underlying belief that they must have acted in a criminal fashion if someone has died."

[BIGUN 1,424]

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

How does the same situation play out in a world where the cops aren't armed and free to shoot? 

Three rings of law enforcement:

1st Ring - Community Service Officers embedded in the community. Uniforms and radio only (listening posts for LE and the community)

2nd Ring - Qualified to handle hand-to-hand (no gun, but batons and hand-to-hand training).

3rd Ring - LE with weapons - CSO's can decide which of the next rings needs to respond. 

But, in order to do this - The number of weapons on the street needs to be reduced and the attitude of the 2nd amendment as an entitled right shifted to one of respect for the right. Shit, do I gotta do everything around here.

[Phil1111 1,149]

37 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Three rings of law enforcement:

1st Ring - Community Service Officers embedded in the community. Uniforms and radio only (listening posts for LE and the community)

2nd Ring - Qualified to handle hand-to-hand (no gun, but batons and hand-to-hand training).

3rd Ring - LE with weapons - CSO's can decide which of the next rings needs to respond. 

But, in order to do this - The number of weapons on the street needs to be reduced and the attitude of the 2nd amendment as an entitled right shifted to one of respect for the right. Shit, do I gotta do everything around here.

The heaviest load goes to those with the broadest shoulders. Who carry the load w/o complaining because leaders lead by example.

[sfzombie13 324]

47 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Three rings of law enforcement:

1st Ring - Community Service Officers embedded in the community. Uniforms and radio only (listening posts for LE and the community)

2nd Ring - Qualified to handle hand-to-hand (no gun, but batons and hand-to-hand training).

3rd Ring - LE with weapons - CSO's can decide which of the next rings needs to respond. 

But, in order to do this - The number of weapons on the street needs to be reduced and the attitude of the 2nd amendment as an entitled right shifted to one of respect for the right. Shit, do I gotta do everything around here.

you mean like some sort of controlling the guns?  like, maybe requiring extensive mental health reviews for assault weapons?  or just patching the existing loopholes and make it mandatory for background checks in every single gun sale, even personal.  the term well-regulated has been debated, but militia has not.  for you to be in the militia, there are all sorts of requirements.  why not extend some to the idiots who want to own their weapons? 

[BIGUN 1,424]

32 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

you mean like some sort of controlling the guns?  like, maybe requiring extensive mental health reviews for assault weapons?  or just patching the existing loopholes and make it mandatory for background checks in every single gun sale, even personal.  the term well-regulated has been debated, but militia has not.  for you to be in the militia, there are all sorts of requirements.  why not extend some to the idiots who want to own their weapons? 

Tim, you have really got to go back and read the proposed plan. 

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Three rings of law enforcement:

1st Ring - Community Service Officers embedded in the community. Uniforms and radio only (listening posts for LE and the community)

2nd Ring - Qualified to handle hand-to-hand (no gun, but batons and hand-to-hand training).

3rd Ring - LE with weapons - CSO's can decide which of the next rings needs to respond. 

But, in order to do this - The number of weapons on the street needs to be reduced and the attitude of the 2nd amendment as an entitled right shifted to one of respect for the right. Shit, do I gotta do everything around here.

You do until rhetorical questions are no longer needed to get simple answers from entrenched interests. Bringing a gun to a knife fight, like it's an Indiana Jones movie, is how you should defend your home and family not police the community.   Of course, that just leads us back to the railroad track switch for another Sophie's choice: are we better off to sacrifice a few people to citizen on citizen knife attacks if in return we no longer have kids being shot in the back because the local cop didn't want to get his brand new swat team looking uniform dirty chasing him down?  

Stopping the chase and passing off responsibility to different cops may not be as fun as 100 MPH chases through school zones or emptying your service weapon into a car's rear window but maybe, just maybe, we truly should be organizing police response in layers and training the cops very differently. 

We shouldn't defund the police; we might even need to give policing more money. That answer isn't obvious. What is obvious is that we currently, and far too often, are not doing things right.

[BIGUN 1,424]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

We shouldn't defund the police; we might even need to give policing more money. That answer isn't obvious. What is obvious is that we currently, and far too often, are not doing things right.

Amen. 

[ryoder 1,590]

18 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

We shouldn't defund the police; we might even need to give policing more money. That answer isn't obvious. What is obvious is that we currently, and far too often, are not doing things right.

"Defund the police" is the absolute dumbest slogan, which obscures what it really means. Here is a successful example of what can be accomplished:

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/08/974941422/6-month-experiment-replacing-denver-police-with-mental-health-teams-dubbed-a-suc

[nwt 131]

4 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

cop tackles the girl, subdues her, and gets a cut on his arm.  the ambulance that was dispatched since every call involving a fight could be life threatening, has a crew that attends to the cop, the girl, and the victim if she got stabbed or cut before the cop tackled the attacker.  unless extremely unlucky or a very savage attack, everyone lives.

I dunno, from the video it looks pretty clear that there was a high risk of the one girl getting stabbed right in the chest, which can easily be fatal even with first responders nearby.

Other countries seem to have better results with less force, and I think that's something to strive for. But, I don't know how we get there. If you took someone else's police system and plopped it down here overnight, it would be a disaster.

[JoeWeber 2,836]

10 minutes ago, ryoder said:

"Defund the police" is the absolute dumbest slogan, which obscures what it really means. Here is a successful example of what can be accomplished:

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/08/974941422/6-month-experiment-replacing-denver-police-with-mental-health-teams-dubbed-a-suc

Unfortunately too many people choose to interpret it to mean smacking them down, taking away the fun toys, replacing their muscle cars with 1961 Plymouth Belvedere's, and putting Deputy Fife in charge of the whole shebang.

Edited April 28, 2021 by JoeWeber

[gowlerk 2,253]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

Unfortunately too many people choose to interpret it to mean smacking them down, taking away the fun toys, and replacing their muscle cars with 1961 Plymouth Belvedere's and putting Deputy Fife in charge of the whole shebang.

'Cuz "reform the police" is boring. And hard to ridicule. What is needed is accountability, nothing more and nothing less.

[BIGUN 1,424]

32 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Here is a successful example of what can be accomplished:

Another.

" . . . what some call the Camden Miracle, and it’s responsible for Camden suddenly being seen as a model for  “defunding the police.” But what happened in Camden was not a defunding at all; instead, it was a transfer of authority to what residents call the Metro—and, though Camden saw a drop in crime rates, so did other major urban communities in the state."

If there's a successful model out there; use it.

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

48 minutes ago, nwt said:

I dunno, from the video it looks pretty clear that there was a high risk of the one girl getting stabbed right in the chest, which can easily be fatal even with first responders nearby.

Other countries seem to have better results with less force, and I think that's something to strive for. But, I don't know how we get there. If you took someone else's police system and plopped it down here overnight, it would be a disaster.

Keep in mind that the girl with the knife was acting out of control for quite a while before the cop got there. The people around her had ample opportunity to run away or to distance themselves from her. They didn't. Without statements from EVERYONE. The video can portray the event in a light inconsistent with the totality of events.

Otherwise i agree with what you're saying.

[nwt 131]

5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The people around her had ample opportunity to run away or to distance themselves from her. They didn't.

What's your point? That if she got stabbed and died, she deserved it, so an intervention wasn't warranted?

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

You do until rhetorical questions are no longer needed to get simple answers from entrenched interests. Bringing a gun to a knife fight, like it's an Indiana Jones movie, is how you should defend your home and family not police the community.   Of course, that just leads us back to the railroad track switch for another Sophie's choice: are we better off to sacrifice a few people to citizen on citizen knife attacks if in return we no longer have kids being shot in the back because the local cop didn't want to get his brand new swat team looking uniform dirty chasing him down?  

Stopping the chase and passing off responsibility to different cops may not be as fun as 100 MPH chases through school zones or emptying your service weapon into a car's rear window but maybe, just maybe, we truly should be organizing police response in layers and training the cops very differently. 

We shouldn't defund the police; we might even need to give policing more money. That answer isn't obvious. What is obvious is that we currently, and far too often, are not doing things right.

Hi Joe,

Great comment - I agree totally.

'Defund the police' is IMO a truly dumb idea. 

'Defund the police' reminds me of Ronald Reagan's 15-word solution to any problem. 

Ain't gonna happen.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 3,078]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

We shouldn't defund the police; we might even need to give policing more money. That answer isn't obvious. What is obvious is that we currently, and far too often, are not doing things right.

Agreed.  However, redirecting some of that money (i.e. via a program like Denver's) can also make sense.  You end up with fewer armed police (or what we consider today to be police) - but more boots on the ground total, and more ability to deal with mental health issues.

Last Thanksgiving we had a guy with some serious mental health problems show up at our doorstep, wearing only pants.  He actually asked us to call the police because he didn't know what else to do.  Two cops showed up and handled it very calmly and professionally, and they took the guy to the hospital.

That was great, but it's also an example of a problem that doesn't need two armed cops to handle.

[Phil1111 1,149]

36 minutes ago, nwt said:

What's your point? That if she got stabbed and died, she deserved it, so an intervention wasn't warranted?

There is some dispute as to whether or not the 16 YO FM who was killed by police made the 911 call. The call said there was some armed girls with knives trying to assault someones grandmother. The police arrived 12 minutes after the call.

Think about it.

[yoink 321]

 

14 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

How does the same situation play out in a world where the cops aren't armed and free to shoot? 

Irrelevant to this situation. 

We're dealing with what actually happened, and what should happen in America. 

Cops aren't going to be disarmed here, ever, so it's a pointless conversation to compare a completely different policing and cultural structure. A better question would be 'did the cop follow procedure, and if we think those procedures are wrong how should they be changed?'

Given that the police force will always be armed in the US, how are the procedures written for an armed police force in a way that protects both the civilians and AND the police to the best ability. 

 

[nwt 131]

17 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

There is some dispute as to whether or not the 16 YO FM who was killed by police made the 911 call. The call said there was some armed girls with knives trying to assault someones grandmother. The police arrived 12 minutes after the call.

Think about it.

I honestly don't see where you're going with this or what you want me to think about. What difference does it make to this discussion if the person killed was the one who made the 911 call?

[jakee 1,564]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

We shouldn't defund the police; we might even need to give policing more money. That answer isn't obvious. What is obvious is that we currently, and far too often, are not doing things right.

Defunding the police means giving the money they spend on doing things that aren’t police work to people who are trained to do those jobs. Currently the police has to do those jobs because there is no one else to do them, because the police have all the money which they need because they have to do it. And because they’re not very well trained to do those jobs that aren’t really their job, they spend more money to do it worse than dedicated professionals would. 
 

For a really simple example check out the last vid of the 8(?) year old girl who was maced in the back of a police car after her family called the cops to report a mental health emergency. There were like 6 squad cars and 20 cops on the scene. Like, how the fuck much does that cost vs one trained and knowledgable on call social worker?