PC in tow ? mal, from the incident thread.

[NelKel 0]

Help, the SIM offers two reactions to a PC in tow. Pull reserve. (OR) Cut away, and pull reserve. The point is for the jumper to have a plan so not to burn up altitude trying to decide.

A two out situation can be caused after the reserve deployment. The main compartment would have the room to stretch, and the main PC being out in the airstream could also deploy the main.

My plan, based on current information and my style;

I pull between 3.5 and 3. If I had a PC in tow I would located and pull cutaway, then reserve. However I would never go low trying to locate cutaway. If I had to, I would pull silver with out a cutaway once I found myself low, or would abandon the cutaway going through 1K.

I consider a PC in tow; a malfunction in deployment.


ie: activation, deployment, inflation

I consider a PC in tow as a partial, high speed mal. The main deployment handle has been "activated".

Question: Is my plan flawed? Please explain.

When faced with that situation, and I followed my plan:

I'm in the saddle under my reserve, and my main starts to deploy: does it fall between my legs, deploy, and start to inflate and only then releases from the 3 rings?

Can this still cause an entanglement?

My idea is to avoid a two out situation.

Thank you, and don't hesitate to post, I want to learn, and I want to hear your opinion.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[mdrejhon 8]

You have more jumps than I do, but I read many dropzone.com threads that clearly explained why.

I also talked to others at my dropzone. Standard training procedure is just go ahead and do EP.

The whole ball of wax (click). Made me dizzy.

From these, considerations included:
- Muscle memory for EP. It's safer to follow your muscle memory quickly, regardless.
- You don't want to be hesistant pulling silver
- Just do something NOW, it's a high speed malfunction. You're less than 20 seconds from splat.
- etc.

Crapshoot Consideration:
- One of the greenies said this.
- 2-out may be safer than trying to fix a malfunctioning PC. People have been killed.
- Trying to fix a malfunctioning PC can be safer than having 2-out. People have been killed.

I'm going to just go by muscle memory and go EP without wasting time worrying about 2-out. Maybe one attempt to fix (bridle grab) if I'm doing 4K/5K pulls (which I do fairly frequently, since I enjoy the canopy flight). If two out happens, I'll deal it with my existing two out training.

I know it does not answer your question. I'll let search and others attack this question, but I've historically seen this become a pretty heated discussion.

[councilman24 37]

I've been there. You don't have time to see if your at a grand and change your plan. All of this happens at terminal velocity. At a grand you've got 5 seconds till you hit, maybe 2 seconds to get the reserve pulled and have a chance of opening.

I believe you should pick on plan and stick with it. If I had cutaway from mine I would have wasted too much time and would be dead. I did have both out but a tree stopped me before I had time to flying.

My recommendation is to get your reserve out, then deal with the main if it comes out.

IMHO
But this is a personal decision. Because there are pros and cons to each, USPA offers both and lets you decide.


We had a jumper from England come through many years ago. (Pre cypres days, no aad on the rental rig) He rented a rig and went up. He went in with out pulling his main or reserve. Neither seemed to have a problem. The only handle pulled was the cutaway. I believe he got low and decided to open his reserve. I believe his emergency procedure for everything was cutaway and then pull the reserve. I believe he spent the rest of his life pulling the only handle that wouldn't save his life.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Ron 10]

Quote

Help, the SIM offers two reactions to a PC in tow. Pull reserve. (OR) Cut away, and pull reserve. The point is for the jumper to have a plan so not to burn up altitude trying to decide.

Either will save or kill you depending on that one jump. People have done both and lived and people have done both and died.

The most important thing is to do something so you don't waste time and land just a pilot chute.

Me? I'm stopping the jump and dealing with what I get.

One benefit of this is I can still cutaway once the reserve is open. If you cutaway first you have no other options left.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NelKel 0]

My recommendation is to get your reserve out, then deal with the main if it comes out.<<<<

Terry, Thanks. The reason I stated I would abandon a cutaway passing through a grand is because it in the SIM's. Sorta like " regardles of the malfunction, and regardles of your EP plan" the reserve deployment handle must be pulled by 1000 ft.

IYO, am I correct in believing that the main will actually fall out between you legs, then inflate, when your suspended in the saddle of your reserve?

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[NelKel 0]

I also talked to others at my dropzone. Standard training procedure is just go ahead and do EP.<<<

Thanks, good point!

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[NelKel 0]

One benefit of this is I can still cutaway once the reserve is open. If you cutaway first you have no other options left.<<<<<<


WOW! Great point! Thanks.

Ron, sorta like a canopy transfer?

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Ron 10]

Quote

One benefit of this is I can still cutaway once the reserve is open. If you cutaway first you have no other options left.<<<<<<


WOW! Great point! Thanks.

Ron, sorta like a canopy transfer?

Well yes and no.

The thing is if you did cutaway first and all hell breaks loose.....You have no other options.

If you dump the reserve and all hell breaks loose you still have an option left. You may not choose to do it, and even if you do it it may not help...But you have an option

And if you stop the jump first, you will have something out when you hit....Better than nothing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[councilman24 37]

Depends on when they each come out. The main PC may release when the reserve opens and they both will deploy. The army spent a long time TRYING to get to squares to foul. They only managed once, when one bag was caught under the slider of the other. Otherwise they got two canopies open. This was before the pocket rockets, but is still meaningful. If the main container doesn't open until the opening shock of the reserve, it will likely fall out.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[NelKel 0]

OK so its like

a. break your burrble (PC in tow)
b. pull silver
c. peal breakaway, and be ready?

I think you, and Terry have merit you your EP's. Thank you for responding.

Well yes and no.<<<<

I get it. A canopy transfer but in reverse. Dump reserve, peal breakaway, pause to response to situation?

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[JohnMitchell 16]

Buy a pullout rig or a ripcord rig.

<<<>>>>

[NelKel 0]

If the main container doesn't open until the opening shock of the reserve, it will likely fall out. <<<<


Thank you, does that give enough time to cutaway?
I mean does a main still in the bag have enough "weight" to clear the 3 rings before inflation?

I know, I'm asking the hard ones. Sorry.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[NelKel 0]

Buy a pullout rig or a ripcord rig.

<<<>>>>



Got it,

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[sundevil777 102]

As you said, the debate centers on the fact that many times a PC in tow will stop 'towing' when the reserve is opened, because of reduced tension on the container, thus there is a risk of a simultaneous deployment and entanglement.

The chance for problems with a 2 out situation must be balanced against the chance for the departing main to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best, but I favor not cutting away.

Please read;
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

and this is a decent thread dealing thoughtfully with the subject (of course my posts are the most thoughtful:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=597809#597809

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 10]

Quote

OK so its like

a. break your burrble (PC in tow)
b. pull silver
c. peal breakaway, and be ready?

I would not peal it unless I was going to use it.

Quote

I get it. A canopy transfer but in reverse. Dump reserve, peal breakaway, pause to response to situation?

Bingo.
1. Try to get the PC to clear.
2. Dump the reserve (STOP THE SKYDIVE).
3. Check the situation and see if cutting away will help or hurt.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[councilman24 37]

If you have a main in a bag hanging under you, there's probably no reason to cut it away. If you chose to at this point you can always pull the risers off the harness ring if it doesn't release by itself. Everything is now slower and you have time.

Be aware that on a Racer with a RSL you need to know the whether the reserve deployed through the main risers. (Likely in this scenario) The RSL will choke off the reserve if the main is cutaway. This is paragraph is for completeness for others reading it.

My PC in tow was a long time ago. Based on a very tight mid winter pack jog, a not so smooth wire pin, a F111 type PC with several hundred jumps, and a subterminal deployment. But I've seen many caused by twisted leg straps, twisted belly bands, misrouted bridles, etc. The advent and popularity of BOCs have eliminated most of the mechanisms of towing a PC.

For perspective I've know instructors in the past who taught newbies they should try to reach back and pull the pin by hand. I watched a friend do this and create a horseshoe malfunction. The tow was caused by a twisted leg strap and was never going to clear. She dumped her round reserve into it will spinning like a top. The reserve snaked up and opened. She was still adding linetwists from the spin under the horseshoe when she landed. One instructor who taught this then taught people if they couldn't pull it by hand to roll on there back, pull the PC in, roll back face to earth, and pull the reserve. This is almost impossible to do with unlimited time! Thankfully as far as I know he isn't instructing anymore.
I still believe you need to choose a procedure for a PC in tow and not make it dependant on altitude. You've already decided you need a parachute open. Do that first and THEN deal with the rest. IMHO The other decision, to cutaway first is still a valid option. But trying to decide between the two in the air, during the problem, at terminal velocity, below your main opening altitude, trying to read an altimeter, is a prescription for running out of time.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[NelKel 0]

OK I think I'm starting to get it.

Thanks Terry, Ron, and Sundevil.

Stopping the skydive is apparently more important than landing a two out. I am going to seriously reconsider my EP's before I jump again. After all a jumper needs to have a plan and stick to it. There is no time when traveling at terminal to reconsider.

Even though dumping your reserve in a PC in tow can almost insure a two out, it, in itself is safer than, cutting away first because it may be a waist of time/altitude.
You can always cutaway after, or land a SBS/biplane.

If you dump reserve and stop the skydive, aware of a two out, you may able to chop before the main completes inflation.

It does go against instinct of how to handle a partial, but it seems to give you the best odds of surviving the jump.

With all these different scenarios, it almost no wonder the USPA has adopted both plans to limit liability. It is up to each of us to formulate a plan and stick to it. Thanks guys!

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

<<<>>>>

Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Travman 6]

The Australian Parachute Federation strongly suggests the standard procedure for a PC in Tow is to follow normal EP's and cutaway first. Their reason is when the reserve comes off your back it can disturb the main d-bag (as has been mentioned) and cause it to deploy causing a two out.
The other problem with a PC in tow I have been told is you actually speed up because the drag from the PC puts you feet to earth.

[Samurai136 0]

2-out is not a malfunction.

Pulling the cut-away does nothing. The 3-rings do not release until the risers are loaded.

Conventional wisdom on 2-out is to not cut-away if the canopies are flying well together because releasing the main in this situation risks fouling the reserve. It seems to me that cutting away first in a PC-in-tow runs the same risk because the main will not be released until it is partially inflated.

I agree with Ron, stop the skydive. Getting a good parachute over your head is your first priority.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

I've been there. You don't have time to see if your at a grand and change your plan. All of this happens at terminal velocity. At a grand you've got 5 seconds till you hit, maybe 2 seconds to get the reserve pulled and have a chance of opening.

You and I both.

Feburary 1992, Deland , FL

Just reviewed my EP's before leaving the plane. That was something Mike Michigan had instilled in me years before. He had taught me to visualize a certain malfuction(a different one each time), and to mentally go through the EP's.

Luckily for me, I had just mentally reviewed a PC in tow.

At about 1500 ft (I know!), deployed and the PC had tied itself in a knot.

Pulled silver, got open at 300-400 ft. If I had wasted time to cut away.........


I agree, get something over your head and then
deal with it!


Safe Ones,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[goose491 0]

Quote

The other problem with a PC in tow I have been told is you actually speed up because the drag from the PC puts you feet to earth.

I see the reasoning, but it's not very likely that a PC in tow is going to stand you up. If you have a PC in tow, the point of contact between the bridal and you is likely at the pin or lower (longitudinally on the body).

At least that is my thinking, feel free to correct, anyone.

EDITED to add: Travman, might you be refering to a bag-lock?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[councilman24 37]

IF you sped up, its another reason not to cutaway. You have even less time! But mine didn't stand me up. The point of attachment is near that of a tandem drogue. No reason for it to stand you up.

Are you confusing a streamer with a PC in tow? A streamer, main out of the container but not inflated, either in the bag or not, will stand you up and does warrant/require cutting away.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JeepDiver 0]

This thread is very helpful. (to me) It may have been discussed ad-naseum in the past but I've never seen it nor been a part of it.

Thanks to all of you....for taking the time once again, continue.

• Quote

[Ron 10]

Quote

The other problem with a PC in tow I have been told is you actually speed up because the drag from the PC puts you feet to earth.

A PC in tow will not stand you up. The attachment point is just like a drouge on a tandem.

If anything it might slow you down a VERY tiny bit.

Quote

Their reason is when the reserve comes off your back it can disturb the main d-bag (as has been mentioned) and cause it to deploy causing a two out.

A two out MIGHT kill you. Landing only a Pilot chute WILL kill you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334