How to end this

[turtlespeed 226]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Basically the same attitude you are displaying now. Refusal to listen to outside perspective.

....not being critical.

 

Critical is fine - 

And I hear what you are saying. 

I also don't see any perspective being adjusted or alternatives being considered on your end either.

[billvon 3,121]

9 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Part of what you are seeing in the US is a direct result of not improving, not getting better, not being critical. It is the result of you thinking you are on top of the world and the best at everything.

It would be interesting to see the correlation between degree of right wing of extremism vs. the people who have spent no significant time outside the US.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

It would be interesting to see the correlation between degree of right wing of extremism vs. the people who have spent no significant time outside the US.

I suspect it would show a correlation to more tribalism.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

I also don't see any perspective being adjusted or alternatives being considered on your end either.

Uhmm, the Canadian government took immediate action after the mass shooting/murder. A lot of it I do not agree with, but the idea that nothing was considered is simply not true.

[turtlespeed 226]

Just now, SkyDekker said:

Uhmm, the Canadian government took immediate action after the mass shooting/murder. A lot of it I do not agree with, but the idea that nothing was considered is simply not true.

I see.  I was mistaken that you were meaning me, personally, when you said "you".  Instead you meant the entire US government.

My mistake.

[nigel99 628]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

It would be interesting to see the correlation between degree of right wing of extremism vs. the people who have spent no significant time outside the US.

Not the first person to say that! It is very telling when you meet Americans who have really traveled and those who haven’t. I say really travelled as some military or oil field workers never left their bubble

[turtlespeed 226]

6 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

Not the first person to say that! It is very telling when you meet Americans who have really traveled and those who haven’t. I say really travelled as some military or oil field workers never left their bubble

I wonder if that is unique to the US.

[wmw999 2,592]

I'm sure it's not unique to Americans. The Brits were pretty famous for it in the last century or two, and I'm sure there are plenty of others. And yes, the same applies to some immigrants to any country -- consider all the Germans and Czech who settled in Texas, all the Scandinavians who settled in the upper Midwest (and New England), all the Italians, Irish, and Central European Jews who settled in NYC and its environs -- people make communities, and then they spread out. 

People are tribal by nature, but recognizing it, and recognizing that it doesn't mean other tribes are your enemy, is a sign of maturity.

Wendy P

[turtlespeed 226]

51 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I'm sure it's not unique to Americans. The Brits were pretty famous for it in the last century or two, and I'm sure there are plenty of others. And yes, the same applies to some immigrants to any country -- consider all the Germans and Czech who settled in Texas, all the Scandinavians who settled in the upper Midwest (and New England), all the Italians, Irish, and Central European Jews who settled in NYC and its environs -- people make communities, and then they spread out. 

People are tribal by nature, but recognizing it, and recognizing that it doesn't mean other tribes are your enemy, is a sign of maturity.

Wendy P

Tribalism is good though, isn't it?

[wmw999 2,592]

12 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Tribalism is good though, isn't it?

If it's a supportive thing, probably. If it's an against thing, probably not. By that I mean -- if the tribe supports each other, rather than focusing mostly on keeping others out or down. If you have to keep others out or down to "support" each other, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Wendy P.

Edited June 10, 2020 by wmw999

[turtlespeed 226]

26 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

If it's a supportive thing, probably. If it's an against thing, probably not. By that I mean -- if the tribe supports each other, rather than focusing mostly on keeping others out or down. If you have to keep others out or down to "support" each other, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Wendy P.

What if both happens?

OK - I'm not going yo play the set up game.

My remarks were leaning to the "true" tribes and the rules and regulations for Native American reservations here in the US.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by turtlespeed

[kallend 2,154]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

I'm sure it's not unique to Americans. The Brits were pretty famous for it in the last century or two, and I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Given the task of running an empire on which "the Sun never set" I would venture that a very large number of Brits traveled beyond their borders, and since WWII Brits have very easy vacation access to Europe, N. Africa, Turkey, etc.

 

[billvon 3,121]

Mike O'Meara, president of the N.Y. State Police Benevolent Association, recently asked people to "Stop treating us like animals and thugs, and start treating us with some respect!"

I am certain he never even considered the irony in his statement.

[BIGUN 1,490]

I've been reviewing this "de-fund" the cops thing and at first my instinct was this may not be a good thing. But, the more I learned about it; the more it made sense. Not unlike my neighborhood growing up. Take members of the community, in that community, and make them part of the community service program (and take away the military uniforms). "Stop having the cats set out more mouse traps" as was said. A model for consideration is. Camden NJ used to be known for its violence. They defunded and changed the entire department and now have half the crime rate they did. Not unlike my neighborhood growing up or the small town USA.

"In the absence of reliable evidence of the effectiveness of proactive policing, it is time to consider how proactive policing reform might reduce crime and increase well-being in the most heavily policed communities." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5

Having a military background and being an active part of the veteran community; we treat each death with a memorial service. During the height of the war; we would meet the plane, escort the service member to the funeral home hearse, escort it to the funeral home, stand in line at the funeral home and then when the service was over, escort the family to the cemetery and have full honors. I share this with you because all over the country veterans have national cemeteries and the big one is Arlington in which there is a national televised spot - to remember; once a year.   

Hollywood has it's stars on the sidewalk. Vietnam has its wall, WWII has its memorial. The minority community getting killed by cops has nothing. Perhaps a memorial of some type. Let's call it a wall - with the names of those killed, with the towns they were killed in, by the name of the police department.  A place that people could go to mourn. A centralized place where people could go to hold a protest as well as a memorial service. Family & friends can gather. It would be a memorial wall for those killed, but a wall of shame for those cities and police departments that were on there also. A place where a city, town, or community would not want their name. And, if it should happen again; a place for all people around the country to join together in memory, a place to protest that grows every time it happens until at some point - a Mayor or governor is going to say, "Our town will NOT be on that wall." To be a constant reminder. Just a thought.   

If we look at all the people killed by cops - it is staggering. It is an attitude with the cops, but it is also an issue with the leadership governing the police. Black men getting shot in the back, 11 year old girls getting tased, etc. It goes on and on and it fades away with the next news cycle. Less than a week after George Floyd was killed; there was a African-American cop with a choke hold on a 14 year old African-American boy - a lady walked up and said he can't breathe. He told her to go away and continued. 

There needs to be a change in the police department and there needs to be a change in society.  We can only hope that George Floyd is the last, but we have hoped for that each time in the past and it didn't work

[Phil1111 1,186]

7 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I've been reviewing this "de-fund" the cops thing .... 

There needs to be a change in the police department and there needs to be a change in society.  We can only hope that George Floyd is the last, but we have hoped for that each time in the past and it didn't work

Agree. Community policing programs where LE officers work hand in hand with trug treatment programs. Safe drug injection sites, Gang-education and alternative programs, etc. have all shown to be very effective. Traditionally conservatives and cops have rejected these ideas. Until they see the results.

I have no problems with funding for LE at current levels. But LE has to answer for wrongdoing, answer for concealing the bad cops and answer for poor policing outcomes. Then mesh social programs to address underlying drug, family, alcohol, violence, etc. that drives criminal behaviors. Targeting social or racial groups has to end. Accountability should be at the front of the equation. Not the end or somewhere if you get caught on camera.

[Phil1111 1,186]

On 6/9/2020 at 10:02 AM, gowlerk said:

For instance, in the case of the recent Nova Scotia mass murders, the shooter had in his possession a total of 5 weapons. All but one of them are believed to have been acquired by him in the USA and smuggled into Canada. He did not have a firearm acquisition permit. Canadian criminals who desire killing machines are well supplied with an abundant supply courtesy of our well armed neighbours.

As usual Turtle is talking out his #ss. The result of this shooting is that the government of Canada has enacted an assault weapons ban. Trudeau announces Canada is banning assault-style weapons Move comes after murder of 22 people in worst mass shooting in Canada’s history

In excess of 1800(now) firearm types have been banned including the possession of parts of any of these weapons and high capacity magazines for any of those weapons.

For many Americans the right to carry such weapons to their legislatures and parade around like fools. As they exercise their rights to "bear arms". Would be met with rioting at any such discussion to ban their precious AR-15, let alone their high capacity magazine.

Personally I oppose the ban as regulations in Canada prior to the ban were very restrictive.

[wmw999 2,592]

A FB friend of mine copied the following, which makes a lot of sense in the "defund" world. It's kind of like "reduce their lifestyle and requirements, so they don't need to keep asking for more money to keep taking on new responsibilities"

Begin quote (formatting issues using hte quote box make this look better)

**Written by a police officer who gave permission to copy and repost.

THIS: “Defund the Police. Let's talk about it. But don't stop reading until its over because you might be surprised. Lets get 2 things out of the way. 1st, the phrase "Defund the Police" is the stupidest proposal ever. 2nd, I actually support the concept at its roots.

Defund means to prevent from receive funding or to withdraw funds from. And I believe the term Defund the Police is intentionally inflammatory, divisive, and charged. But that's not what it means, and its own title will hinder it's progress.

Someone who has pull within this movement should immediately change the title to "Stop Overburdening the Police." Because truly, that's what they mean.

When I started in 2004, if I met a person in crisis, a person with suicidal ideations, a person with a mental illness (diagnosed or not), I could at my discretion or their request drive them to the state mental hospital in downtown Phoenix. I would pull up to the front door and drop them off. The problem was dealt with by trained social service employees and medical clinicians. Transients could be directed to one of several shelters to receive food, a bed, supplies, or aid. But resources slowly, and quietly began getting shut down. It actually took me almost a year to realize that the state mental hospital didn't exist any more. Not only could it no longer be used as a resource for me....but the occupants that were housed there were released and trickled out on to the streets.

Instead of defunding the police. Stop overburdening them.

Support crisis intervention teams from your local hospital that are available 24 hours a day to respond out to calls for help. Understand that some programs like that currently exist. Most are underfunded, available intermittently, and almost all require officers to be dispatched with them. If there are no police, they will not go either. Police Officers receive (an anecdotal guess) 2 to 8 hours of crisis training per year, unless an individual officer elects or is directed to attend a 1 week class. Still no where near what a social worker does. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with your community's mentally ill.

Support homeless shelters, low income housing, multi family housing units, and other resources in your community. High housing costs, population density, unemployment, and the aforementioned mental health issues are causing an increase in homelessness and transients. Officers receive (an anecdotal guess) 0 hours per year training specifically on homeless issues. Some officers may seek out training or resources personally, as a matter of interested. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with your community's homeless population.

Support after school programs for kids, child care facilities, sports programs, park programs, and tutoring centers. Children raised in single parent households are usually at home by themselves after school. Idle hands are the devil's playground. Without positive adult role models, positive activities, positive social interaction, and adult supervision, kids will engage in petty crimes, try smoking or drug use, flock to peers with strong (but sometimes unhealthy) personalities. Kids don't need to be introduced to the criminal justice system. They need to be raised responsibly and integrated in to society. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with unsupervised kids in the community.

Support self service centers at your court house. Custody exchanges, custody disputes, property disputes, landlord tenant issues, etc are not police issues. Attorneys go to school for 6 years or so. Officer get (on average) a 16 week academy and a 16 week field training program. Most of it focused on criminal law. Stop introducing people in to the criminal justice system when they need civil law assistance. Don't make officers responsible for applying criminal law to civil issues or for providing civil law advise to people.

Support increased funding and training for Emergency Call Centers. 911 centers are the first line of discretion in an agency. Many centers receive a call for any request from a citizen and enter a call for service without question. Once that call is entered, an officer must respond. First off, call centers across the country are severely under funded, understaffed, overworked, and burned out. They are almost working on autopilot, for up to 16 hours per shift, days in a row. Demand higher pay for dispatchers, attract better candidates, hire qualified applicants, train them more, and fully staff the centers. Provide call takers with basic civil and criminal law classes to allow them to filter out non police issues and direct citizens to the right service. In most locations, if you call 911 (for other than a clear medical emergency) you will get the police. But the police are not always whats needed. Don't use the police as a catch all for any problem you have.

Support evaluating and repealing stupid criminal statutes. Why was Eric Garner contacted in the first place? For selling Loosies (Loose, singe cigarettes). Why is that even illegal? America loves legislating behavior in to crimes. And by crime, I mean something that could put a person in a jail, even for a day. Not picking up dog poop should not be a crime. Driving without a license should not be a crime. Walking in the street next to a sidewalk should not be a crime. Receiving a product to sell in a package and selling the contents individually should not be a crime. There are civil ways of dealing with issues. Zoning, Code Enforcement, Health Department, etc, can issue warning, fines, liens, etc. Don't use the police to incarcerate people for low level offenses that shouldn't be unlawful anyway.

Finally, stop using your police department as a one stop shop for all your life's problems.

Don't call the police because someone is fishing in your HOA pond.

Don't call the police because the ducks behind your house are too loud.

Don't call the police because your 7 and 9 year old are arguing over Pokemon cards.

Don't call the police because your 11 year old refuses to go to school.

Don't call the police because you found weed in your 14 year old's room.

Don't call the police because your ex is 15 minutes late bringing the kids back.

Don't call the police because someone shoplifted $2.49 earrings.

Don't call the police because your neighbor trimmed your tree over the property line.

Don't call the police because you saw a black male walking and you've never seen him in the neighborhood before.

Don't call the police because your neighbor has parked their car in the street for the last 3 weeks.

(FYI, every single one of these is a real call that I personally have responded to in my career).

In summary, Defund the Police? No. Don't Defund the Police. The Police are a necessary part of society that must exist to intervene in violent crimes, criminal investigations, traffic enforcement, etc. Stop Overburdening the Police. Stop relying on the police as your single point of contact with the government. Stop pretending like 36 weeks of training make a person an expert in criminal law, civil law, medical care, child care, adult care, social work, mental health, physician, counseling, accident reconstruction, and housing. Don't punish the police for being the dumping ground of every other agency, department, and administration that doesn't want to deal with something. Properly fund your entire government and your private social outreach organizations, Hold your tax exempt organizations responsible for their tax exempt status.

And in all seriousness, change the movement's title. Because there's some good concepts in there. But Defunding is going to turn off a lot of people before you can even explain.”

Wendy P.

Edited June 12, 2020 by wmw999
formatting issues in the quote box

[BIGUN 1,490]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

"Defund the Police" is the stupidest proposal ever.   

And in all seriousness, change the movement's title. Because there's some good concepts in there. But Defunding is going to turn off a lot of people before you can even explain.”

While s/he has some points - It is a word game issue. Perhaps Re-structure, or demilitarize, or transforming, or community-service policing, etc.. 

“People are seeing for the first time just how militarized the police force is. And this militarization is contributing, potentially, to the higher rates of violence that we’re seeing more ubiquitously in this particular movement that’s happening right now,” Sabrina Karim, a professor of government at Cornell University, told “Marketplace Morning Report” host David Brancaccio. “I’ll also say that militarized policing is not just specific to the response to protests. But also it’s kind of everyday policing. So you see things like the no-knock raids that killed Breonna Taylor,” she said. https://www.marketplace.org/2020/06/12/police-departments-1033-military-equipment-weapons/

[ryoder 1,590]

Talk about being tone-deaf.  SMH

FOP: Chicago officers who kneel with protesters could be kicked out of police union

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/fop-chicago-officers-who-kneel-with-protesters-could-be-kicked-out-of-police-union

[BIGUN 1,490]

29 minutes ago, ryoder said:

kicked out of police union

That's another thing. Police Unions. Why?

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

That's another thing. Police Unions. Why?

Protection from politics and the public's obsession for litigation.  Some unions have gotten WAY out of hand.

[JerryBaumchen 1,469]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

That's another thing. Police Unions. Why?

Hi Keith,

I'm with you.  For many, many years I have said that one of the biggest problems with being in control of the local police is because of the union agreement(s).

IMO no civil servant, at any level, should belong to a union with an agreement with the gov't. that employees said civil servants.  

I have no problem with them joining a union; just with the union calling the shots with the city, county, state, federal gov't., etc.

Those that do not agree, can go elsewhere for work.

Look what Reagan did to the Air Traffic Controllers; they lost, everything.

Jerry Baumchen

[turtlespeed 226]

6 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Keith,

I'm with you.  For many, many years I have said that one of the biggest problems with being in control of the local police is because of the union agreement(s).

IMO no civil servant, at any level, should belong to a union with an agreement with the gov't. that employees said civil servants.  

I have no problem with them joining a union; just with the union calling the shots with the city, county, state, federal gov't., etc.

Those that do not agree, can go elsewhere for work.

Look what Reagan did to the Air Traffic Controllers; they lost, everything.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry, 

Does this include teachers?

What about other first responders?

I ask, because of the protection the unions provide in courts.

Anytime there are children involved, or lives of victims, and/or those that receive care where something could go wrong that is out of the reponders' control, and they still be (get) sued for it.

[billvon 3,121]

11 hours ago, BIGUN said:

That's another thing. Police Unions. Why?

Unions started as a great idea - give workers an organized voice to speak out against workplace abuse and unsafe working conditions.  Many of them have since morphed into profit centers that sell their political power to benefit the union's leaders.

[wmw999 2,592]

I was watching a program about the 1920’s last night, and it talked about Henry Ford paying his employees a good enough wage for them to be able to afford a model T. Also because he didn’t want unions — but that indicates that the unionization efforts of the previous 20-30 years had been successful enough to be a consideration. That’s the purpose of unions — even up the field some. They’re no better with absolute control than bosses are.  Good ones are fine — but eventually an asshole gets power  

Wendy P.