Another method for belting skydivers

[riggerrob 643]

Hi folks,

After I was injured in a plane crash (2008) I have too much time to invent alternate ways to seat-belt skydivers into airplanes.

What if you hang an adjustable Quick-Ejector Snap off the free end of a leg strap and clip it to the nearest cargo-ring?

Quick-Ejector Snaps are most commonly used on tandem students’ side straps.

If there are no cargo-rings, you can alternately attach a Maillon Rapide #6 link to seat-belt fitting.

Before exit, tuck the QE Snap into the pocket/sleeve on your leg pad.

After the crash, I used QE Snaps to anchor hundreds of tandem students when jump planes suffered a “shortage” of seat-belts.

Yes, I have discussed the legal differences with a major Florida-based tandem manufacturer. They did not disapprove of my new method, but dreaded $$$$$$$$ trying to push the concept over the barrier between FAA TSO C22 (seat-belts) and TSO C23 (parachute harnesses).

What are your thoughts?

Edited April 20, 2020 by riggerrob
Add a sentence

[Westerly 61]

I think most DZs dont give enough of a crap to even bother hearing you out. They provide the bare minimum cheap whatever that the FAA requires and that's it. For years experts have been advising people that the single-position seatbelts that lock into one lug are not sufficient and that they can fail at low loads and people should use the dual lug belts instead. Well I dont think I have ever seen a single DZ use the dual lug ones because they are more expensive. No one cares really. safety takes a backseat in a lot of skydiving operations. Some DZs dont even maintain their aircraft properly let alone care about the seat belts.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Westerly

[riggerrob 643]

Struth dear Westerly,

 

OTOH I was suggesting a new method for use at DZs that care too little about their customers' health .... er repeat business.

The other risk is in a few countries with such rigid laws, that it is ridiculously expensive to install proper belts for skydivers.

[DougH 270]

What happens if the snap comes free of its pocket and snags a line on deployment.

It may be a small risk of that happening, but the result would be disastrous. Horseshoe that can't be cleared with a high chance of a reserve/main entanglement.

We saw the footage from the mexico fatality when a side connector, that wasn't reattached after opening, caught a steering line. Also the older video of the vidiot doing a back flip through his risers only to catch a line on his boots.

I always reattach the side connectors, and I never allow students to have hiking boots with hooks. This seems like another deadly snag risk. I don't want any snags on a solo fun jump either.

[RiggerLee 61]

Variations of this idea have been in discussion forever. I remember them all the way back to the otter crash at Paris when I was a young jumper. All of them were better then what we are doing now. None of them have gone any where. Do you think any manufacturer wants his harness to officially be part of the restraining system? There are a lot of hurdles in the way of a new idea. 

 

Lee

[dudeman17 346]

  On 4/20/2020 at 1:17 AM, riggerrob said:

What if you hang an adjustable Quick-Ejector Snap off the free end of a leg strap and clip it to the nearest cargo-ring?

I'm surprised a rigger would suggest such a thing. Complicates the manufacture of the harness, and as Doug points out, introduces a potential snag point.

However, if you reversed the set-up and had the quick ejector strap attached to the plane, and attached it to somewhere on the harness, say the articulated hip ring, that might be more efficient. You'd have to address the legalities of incorporating the harness into the restraint system, as Lee points out. A lot of people do that anyways, though - you see people on straddle benches hooking the seat belt through a leg strap or main lift web.

Edited April 20, 2020 by dudeman17

[evh 22]

"However, if you reversed the set-up and had the quick ejector strap attached to the plane, and attached it to somewhere on the harness, say the articulated hip ring, that might be more efficient"

If by "quick ejector" you mean a large version of an RSL snap, than that's exactly what I see in a lot of planes in Europe (mostly C208's). And it works very well, without the need to modify a harness. I don't know the legal implications, but apparently it's not a problem here.  Getting such seatbelts in our C182 on the other hand appears to be a big problem to the authorities, unfortunately.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,451]

  On 4/20/2020 at 9:39 PM, evh said:

If by "quick ejector" you mean 

Hi evh,

Quick Ejector:

Jerry Baumchen

 

[riggerrob 643]

Dear dudeman 17,

Your suggestion came up during the FAA/PIA seat-belt tests in 1997. Since Sandy Reid organized those tests, someone jokingly suggested that Sandy might “rig” crash sled tests in favour of the ringed harnesses (e.g. Flexon) that he owned the patent on.

None of the crash sled tests used a hook clipped to a hip ring, but we still got a chuckle out of the suggestion.

Hah!

Hah!

QE Snaps would have worked better on the original RW 0 hip-rings than the flat RW-8 rings that are currently fashionable on harness hip junctions.

As an aside, Jack Hooker provided the test-sample belts for the FAA/PIA crash tales tests. Jack had prototype skydiver-specific belts in one of Hinkley’s Cessnas before their Beech 18 crashed on Labour Day 1992. Over the winter of 1992/1993, most American DZs installed Hooker-pattern belts.

[riggerrob 643]

Dear evh,

Extra-large RSL shackles would be better than parachute harness snap hooks, because they are less likely to accidentally snag a jumper. Wichard makes some mighty pretty stainless steel hardware!

[riggerrob 643]

Dear Doug H,

If tandem students wear hooked hiking boots, I reach for duct tape.

Suct tape is considered the handyman’s helper in Canada. Canadian Comedian Red Green did a whole TV series and published a couple of books about the finer points of fixing things with duct tape.

[DougH 270]

  On 4/21/2020 at 2:25 AM, riggerrob said:

Dear Doug H,

If tandem students wear hooked hiking boots, I reach for duct tape.

Suct tape is considered the handyman’s helper in Canada. Canadian Comedian Red Green did a whole TV series and published a couple of books about the finer points of fixing things with duct tape.

We have a bucket of shoes that they can dig through to find a pair that fits. That is normally a good sign that my student isn't going to listen well, since they couldn't read the blurb on the website of what to wear. 

Here is a hint for you, it doesn't list hiking boots as acceptable footwear.

Edited April 21, 2020 by DougH

[sfzombie13 324]

  On 4/20/2020 at 8:56 PM, dudeman17 said:

 You'd have to address the legalities of incorporating the harness into the restraint system, as Lee points out. A lot of people do that anyways, though - you see people on straddle benches hooking the seat belt through a leg strap or main lift web.

correct me if i'm wrong (it happens) but aren't you supposed to route the seatbelt through the main lift web of the harness?  i've only been to a few dzs, but every plane ride i've been in i was told to route it through the main lift web.  doesn't mean they're all  right, but they're been consistent.

[20kN 93]

  On 4/22/2020 at 1:29 PM, sfzombie13 said:

correct me if i'm wrong (it happens) but aren't you supposed to route the seatbelt through the main lift web of the harness?  i've only been to a few dzs, but every plane ride i've been in i was told to route it through the main lift web.  doesn't mean they're all  right, but they're been consistent.

It's actually both. The correct method is to route it through the leg loop and the MLW so it captures both points. But almost no one does that because either most people dont know better or those who do are just lazy.

https://uspa.org/Information/News/seatbelt-usage

Edited April 22, 2020 by 20kN

[riggerrob 643]

yes dear 20kn,

If you route the seatbelt through both loops (leg strap and MLW/lateral/back pad) you get the most secure anchor, with the least chance of wandering around the cabin during a crash.