While we were beefing about trump

[Guest]

Czech this out. I was once like most of you  - not seeing the big picture. But while we were locked in our local political bubble, China was reasserting its hegemony not just in Asia, but in the world. China's resurgent imperialism threatens everyone, and COVID-19 is a grand opportunity.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Guest
changed 'you' to 'we' in title!

[wmw999 2,559]

And we object to that because it threatens our hegemony, right?

Wendy P.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And we object to that because it threatens our hegemony, right?

Wendy P.

Wendy, I like you (honest),  but you haven't been paying attention to current events. Have a look at "OBOR" (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/china-new-silk-road-explainer/)

See also China's imperialist moves in Africa (did you watch the video?) in places like Djibouti (where I was stationed 2012-2013). The US has no hegemony anywhere, but China sure does. Chinese ships poach in waters not their own, and use warships to bully the local governments away. Chinese commercial  fishing boats steal fish from foreign waters (one minor example- https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/385476/china-rejects-poaching-claims-in-tahiti)

C-19 is seen by the Chinese Communist Party as just another opportunity. ***DYOC***

[Phil1111 1,149]

24 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And we object to that because it threatens our hegemony, right?

Wendy P.

Don't confuse dominance and control with co-operative trade relationships. properly defined hegemony would be the USSR and the subservient eastern block countries.

IMO the S. Vietnam governments subsequent to Diem till the end of the war were the only true hegemonic governments.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Don't confuse dominance and control with co-operative trade relationships. properly defined hegemony would be the USSR and the subservient eastern block countries.

IMO the S. Vietnam governments subsequent to Diem till the end of the war were the only true hegemonic governments.

China's dope deals with Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the Philippines are all classic examples of imperialism.

[olofscience 490]

4 minutes ago, markharju said:

China's dope deals with Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the Philippines are all classic examples of imperialism.

Strangely Trump supporters point to the election of Duterte in the Philippines as proof that "people like them" are everywhere, ignoring the fact that he pivoted the Philippines from being a US ally to a country much more friendly to China.

[gowlerk 2,260]

6 minutes ago, markharju said:

China's dope deals with Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the Philippines are all classic examples of imperialism.

You haven't really looked at the way corporate America has used the CIA and the military to advance their interests since the end of WWII have you? China, nor America did not invent this game. Have you heard of the Opium Wars? Talk about your dope deals. Who do you think protected the poppies while the Russians were fighting in Afghanistan?

Edited April 10, 2020 by gowlerk

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Strangely Trump supporters point to the election of Duterte in the Philippines as proof that "people like them" are everywhere, ignoring the fact that he pivoted the Philippines from being a US ally to a country much more friendly to China.

...at their peril.

[olofscience 490]

11 minutes ago, markharju said:

China's dope deals with Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the Philippines are all classic examples of imperialism.

Also, the first thing Trump did when he got elected was to revoke the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Who was the big winner to this? China.

He has done China a huge favour by sinking the USA into his swamp. We're not anti-Trump because we're pro-China, we're anti-Trump precisely because we don't want the US to lose its lead to China.

But because of Trump, it's going to happen.

[wmw999 2,559]

1 hour ago, markharju said:

Wendy, I like you (honest),  but you haven't been paying attention to current events. Have a look at "OBOR" (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/china-new-silk-road-explainer/)

See also China's imperialist moves in Africa (did you watch the video?) in places like Djibouti (where I was stationed 2012-2013). The US has no hegemony anywhere, but China sure does. Chinese ships poach in waters not their own, and use warships to bully the local governments away. Chinese commercial  fishing boats steal fish from foreign waters (one minor example- https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/385476/china-rejects-poaching-claims-in-tahiti)

C-19 is seen by the Chinese Communist Party as just another opportunity. ***DYOC***

I was recently in Africa and the Maldives. Plenty of evidence of China in both of them. On police stations and equipment ("provided by China" or whatever the formal nice wording is), on a bridge, on construction projects that keep people employed. 

Reading the Kenyan newspapers, there doesn't appear to be any tit-for-tat being requested, at least yet. The biggest concerns were all local.

This is anecdotal; not all of China's actions are kind and generous, just look at their trying to build new islands so they can extend their coastline and sea waters. But then neither are ours. Look at Chile, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, Cuba. Venezuela has fucked themselves over all by themselves; we didn't help nearly as much. Probably because they were already selling us oil at a reasonable deal.

What do you think USAID was, but a big "help other countries so they like us and give us good deals" program?

It's not that it's OK for China to be China, it's just that they're not specifically evil. They are most interested in protecting themselves. They see their reputation as being paramount there, along with tight controls over their population and society. Most of us on dz.com at least don't agree. But that doesn't make our shit smell sweet, it just has a different stink.

Wendy P.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

What do you think USAID was, but a big "help other countries so they like us and give us good deals" program?

USAID has been in many places like Palestine and Jordan where I have seen with my own eyes American generosity in which there was nothing expected (or to be possibly gained) in return. China, OTOH, expects much, starting with bending the knee.

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

5 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

... not all of China's actions are kind and generous, just look at their trying to build new islands so they can extend their coastline and sea waters..... China, it's just that they're not specifically evil. They are most interested in protecting themselves. ..Wendy P.

They don't tie human rights, with help.   Don't tie the rule of law with help.

[billvon 3,090]

3 hours ago, markharju said:

USAID has been in many places like Palestine and Jordan where I have seen with my own eyes American generosity in which there was nothing expected (or to be possibly gained) in return. China, OTOH, expects much, starting with bending the knee.

I hope you are kidding when you say that; you are generally a lot more aware of what's going on than that.  Only six months ago the head of USAID said that one of the goals of USAID was "countering malign Kremlin influence by building the economic and democratic resilience of targeted countries.” 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, billvon said:

I hope you are kidding when you say that; you are generally a lot more aware of what's going on than that.  Only six months ago the head of USAID said that one of the goals of USAID was "countering malign Kremlin influence by building the economic and democratic resilience of targeted countries.” 

My remark was with respect to reciprocity. Jordan and Palestine are poor countries with nothing in the way of strategic natural or geographic resources. Lot of places in Africa are under extensive Chinese influence, and many of those countries are failed, corrupt states which nonetheless have resources of inestimable value, such as rare earths in Congo, oil in Angola, and more. https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2019/05/04/what-china-wants-from-africa-everything/

[Guest]

 

[kallend 2,117]

While Trump was mismanaging the crisis:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html

"So much winning".

 

[gowlerk 2,260]

40 minutes ago, kallend said:

While Trump was mismanaging the crisis:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html

"So much winning".

 

Trump and his supporters will continue to tell the world that he is a hero who saved America. They will obfuscate and try to argue about what happened when. It will work for those who want it to work. But in the meantime America is leading the world in bad news from the event. And that will continue because without good leadership small numbers of people who think the economy can be "saved" will be allowed to undermine the efforts of those who are working for the public good. Which will backfire and cause even more damage. The situation could have been written by Joseph Heller.

[turtlespeed 226]

22 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Trump and his supporters will continue to tell the world that he is a hero who saved America. They will obfuscate and try to argue about what happened when. It will work for those who want it to work.

That is exactly what politicians do - they take a happening and make it theirs, if it suits them and blame someone else if it doesn't.

If Obama's order to get Bin Laden had gone south, do you think he would have been out there saying that he ALMOST  "Got" Bin Laden?  Because it went well enough, he claimed it as his own deeds.  Even then, some of the world called him a murderer.  Not as many as call Trump a murderer, but still.

 

[gowlerk 2,260]

21 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

That is exactly what politicians do - they take a happening and make it theirs, if it suits them and blame someone else if it doesn't.

If Obama's order to get Bin Laden had gone south, do you think he would have been out there saying that he ALMOST  "Got" Bin Laden?  Because it went well enough, he claimed it as his own deeds.  Even then, some of the world called him a murderer.  Not as many as call Trump a murderer, but still.

 

See, it's working on you already.

[turtlespeed 226]

5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

See, it's working on you already.

Ah - you falsely assume that I believe that it will be Trump as a savior, like I believe that Bin Laden was killed by Obama.

Edited April 13, 2020 by turtlespeed

[jakee 1,571]

26 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Ah - you falsely assume that I believe that it will be Trump as a savior, like I believe that Bin Laden was killed by Obama.

Obama never said he killed Bin Laden. Trump definitely said he killed Baghdadi, though.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Obama never said he killed Bin Laden. Trump definitely said he killed Baghdadi, though.

Must have recovered from those bone spurs.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Obama never said he killed Bin Laden. Trump definitely said he killed Baghdadi, though.

The Washington Post would disagree with you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-strategy-of-taking-credit-for-osama-bin-laden-killing-risky-some-observers-say/2012/04/30/gIQApuAxrT_story.html

[turtlespeed 226]

I don't believe POTUS said "I killed al-Bagghdadi"

[kallend 2,117]

8 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

The Washington Post would disagree with you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-strategy-of-taking-credit-for-osama-bin-laden-killing-risky-some-observers-say/2012/04/30/gIQApuAxrT_story.html

You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.  Nowhere in that article is it suggested that Obama claimed to have killed bin Laden.