covid-19

[metalslug 36]

9 minutes ago, billvon said:

But two-tiered society?  We have it, and no one seems upset about it now.  People without shoes and shirts are not allowed in most restaurants....   

I take your points, but it has been argued by some that receiving a vaccination is a medical procedure that some regard as invasive. Personally I was fine with getting jabbed, and I won't presume to know how anti-vaxxer logic works in a context of medical phobias vs not wearing shoes.

14 minutes ago, billvon said:

Some data:

I totally get that the vaccines reduce the susceptibility of the recipient, but that's not what I was asking. How much are the unvaccinated more likely to transmit to others ?  If you already included that somewhere above then forgive me, but I didn't see it.

[metalslug 36]

2 minutes ago, olofscience said:

What you mentioned are privileges, and it's illegal to deny those privileges based on race, sexuality, and religion. Being antivax is none of those.

That's fair comment, although it may be argued that religion and antivaxxers have some parallels.

[gowlerk 2,253]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch .

Definition from Google, perhaps anti-vaxxers could indeed be considered "socially inferior". They are after all voluntarily choosing to be disease vectors endangering others around them for no rational reason. I consider them to be at least somewhat inferior.

Un·ter·mensch

/ˈo͝on(t)ərˌmen(t)SH/

 

noun

 

1. a person considered racially or socially inferior

    

    

    

    

    

[nwt 131]

7 minutes ago, metalslug said:

I take your points, but it has been argued by some that receiving a vaccination is a medical procedure that some regard as invasive.

Some may regard it as invasive, but those people are wrong. The actual Nazis did actually invasive things to those they called untermensch, and they bear no relation to this vaccine.

[base698 20]

8 minutes ago, nwt said:

Some may regard it as invasive, but those people are wrong. The actual Nazis did actually invasive things to those they called untermensch, and they bear no relation to this vaccine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study

[metalslug 36]

3 minutes ago, nwt said:

Some may regard it as invasive, but those people are wrong. The actual Nazis did actually invasive things to those they called untermensch, and they bear no relation to this vaccine.

Please refer to the post directly above yours with regard understanding the term. By not receiving the vaccine, antivaxxers are deemed socially inferior by some people and, quite probably, by some laws coming into effect, which is something I'm not yet comfortable with. I'm keen to know how much more infectious (as a danger to others) the vaccinated are vs the unvaccinated. There are no implied parallels here to medical experiments on holocaust victims. 

[JoeWeber 2,840]

15 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Please refer to the post directly above yours with regard understanding the term. By not receiving the vaccine, antivaxxers are deemed socially inferior by some people and, quite probably, by some laws coming into effect, which is something I'm not yet comfortable with. I'm keen to know how much more infectious (as a danger to others) the vaccinated are vs the unvaccinated. There are no implied parallels here to medical experiments on holocaust victims. 

Negative. Antivaxers are not considered socially inferior. They are considered to be an impediment to a more free existence for the rest of us. To wit: fuck 'em.

[nwt 131]

1 hour ago, base698 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study

The vaccines have been proven safe and effective in adults. If your position is teenage boys should have different vaccination requirements from adults, I'm not sure I'd argue against that.

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

By not receiving the vaccine, antivaxxers are deemed socially inferior by some people and, quite probably, by some laws coming into effect, which is something I'm not yet comfortable with

It has always been true that sometimes people are considered socially inferior for their decisions. This is clearly distinct from people being considered socially inferior for their race.

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

There are no implied parallels here to medical experiments on holocaust victims. 

The word you chose to use to describe the unvaccinated is literally a Nazi term for their holocaust victims. The parallel is more than implied, it is quite direct.

Quote

With that being said; some parts of the toxic vitriol being directed to the unvaccinated includes denial of rights (venue admission, employment, public care & services, etc.). Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch

Quote

Untermensch (German pronunciation: [ˈʔʊntɐˌmɛnʃ] (About this soundlisten), underman, sub-man, subhuman; plural: Untermenschen) is a Nazi term for non-Aryan "inferior people" often referred to as "the masses from the East", that is Jews, Roma, and Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Poles and Serbs etc).[1][2] The term was also applied to Mulatto and Black people.[3] Jews were to be exterminated[4] in the Holocaust, along with the Polish and Romani people, and the physically and mentally disabled.[5][6] According to the Generalplan Ost, the Slavic population of East-Central Europe was to be reduced in part through mass murder in the Holocaust, with a majority expelled to Asia and used as slave labor in the Reich. These concepts were an important part of the Nazi racial policy.[7]

 

 

[kallend 2,112]

4 hours ago, metalslug said:

Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch .

We are discussing people voluntarily putting themselves into such a class.  Their solution is simple,  free, and eliminates their risk of getting a Herman Cain award.  

[billvon 3,080]

3 hours ago, metalslug said:

I totally get that the vaccines reduce the susceptibility of the recipient, but that's not what I was asking. How much are the unvaccinated more likely to transmit to others ?  If you already included that somewhere above then forgive me, but I didn't see it.

Per the CDC, the unvaccinated have at least a 3x greater chance of becoming infected with Delta.  Since you can't spread the disease unless you are infected, that means the unvaccinated are ~3x more likely to be able to transmit it.

[jakee 1,564]

3 hours ago, metalslug said:

There are no implied parallels here to medical experiments on holocaust victims. 

Except that you deliberately chose to use a word that carries strong holocaust connotations and you used it for that reason.

If you don't want people to think you're drawing parallels with Nazi treatment of Jews, don't go out of your way to bring Nazi treatment of Jews into the conversation.

Edited September 14, 2021 by jakee

[gowlerk 2,253]

4 minutes ago, jakee said:

If you don't want people to think you're drawing parallels with Nazi treatment of Jews, don't go out of your way to bring Nazi treatment of Jews into the conversation.

Absolutely. Have your cake or eat your cake. Don't eat it and then complain that it is gone.

[metalslug 36]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

Per the CDC, the unvaccinated have at least a 3x greater chance of becoming infected with Delta.  Since you can't spread the disease unless you are infected, that means the unvaccinated are ~3x more likely to be able to transmit it.

That wording is curious. As the vaccine is not a physical barrier, the vaccinated can surely acquire the virus for a transient period before fighting it off ?  Is there no evidence of transmissibility during that period ?   

I'm sure many of us have heard of incidents in which fully vaccinated people were denied travel & access to family members (allegedly in dire need) due to various lockdown rules. Would incidents such as those contradict the science ? ..if the future goal now is to allow the vaccinated to get on with normal life someday soon.

[metalslug 36]

5 hours ago, kallend said:

We are discussing people voluntarily putting themselves into such a class.   

Not accurate IMO; the Covid vaccinated are effectively a new class for compliance within proposed new laws. The unvaccinated have abstained from a transition to that new order, they didn't put themselves into anything.

[JoeWeber 2,840]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

We are discussing people voluntarily putting themselves into such a class.  Their solution is simple,  free, and eliminates their risk of getting a Herman Cain award.  

Trumpanzees are now gargling Betadine Antiseptic to prevent Covid, and I assume, to wash the taste of Ivermectin away. Is there anything those simpletons won't believe?

[ryoder 1,590]

15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Trumpanzees are now gargling Betadine Antiseptic to prevent Covid, and I assume, to wash the taste of Ivermectin away. Is there anything those simpletons won't believe?

I just saw the story a few minutes ago:

Anti-Vaxxers Are Now Gargling Iodine to Prevent Covid-19

Next up: Going to the barber and asking for a haircut and some bloodletting?

[JoeWeber 2,840]

1 minute ago, ryoder said:

I just saw the story a few minutes ago:

Anti-Vaxxers Are Now Gargling Iodine to Prevent Covid-19

Next up: Going to the barber and asking for a haircut and some bloodletting?

I'll just be glad when I'm respected for ear candling.

[murps2000 86]

3 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I just saw the story a few minutes ago:

Anti-Vaxxers Are Now Gargling Iodine to Prevent Covid-19

Next up: Going to the barber and asking for a haircut and some bloodletting?

I wonder if leeches will make a comeback.

[JoeWeber 2,840]

17 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

I wonder if leeches will make a comeback.

I guess you don't follow American politics.

[murps2000 86]

6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I guess you don't follow American politics.

Good point. I set myself up for that one lol.

[TriGirl 333]

15 hours ago, kallend said:

Hospital workers who refuse vaccination SHOULD be fired.  They are ignoring best practice, setting a very poor example, and unethically putting patients and co-workers at risk.

They're also demonstrating that they don't have experience in infections, disease, general health care -- all skills I would think we would want at least from the medical providers (I do recognize you wrote "hospital workers," which include also non-medical providers).

[TriGirl 333]

13 hours ago, gowlerk said:

13 hours ago, metalslug said:

Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch .

Actually there is no plan to create a "two-tiered society", that is hyperbole. Instead there is a plan to put enough pressure on the unvaccinated to make it much easier for them to just give in and do the right thing. And it is beginning to work. Right now it is still a big issue. A year from now we (and most of them) will be wondering what all the fuss was about as we all get used to our yearly booster shots. 

And since when is admission to a private business a "right"?  At least here in the US, the majority of service-industry businesses proudly proclaim that they have the right to refuse service to anyone.  Intoxicated, abusive, shirtless/shoeless... and now those who could spread a deadly disease to the staff and other customers.

[TriGirl 333]

13 hours ago, metalslug said:

On 9/13/2021 at 1:16 PM, TriGirl said:

You can choose not to hang out with people who are 10x more likely to carry, transmit, and mutate the virus, ..

Do you have a citation for that ?

It was a generalization, since I included all the increased risks.  Non-vaxx'd are more easily infected.  If you carry it, you can transmit it.  And as long as the virus is given the freedom to replicate and spread, it will continue to mutate.

Kallend gave much more specific (and higher estimates) of some of these risks, with a citation due to the specific nature of his statement.

[airdvr 210]

Too soon?

[kallend 2,112]

Idaho now rationing healthcare due to hospital bed shortage.  Thanks, anti-vaxxers.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/opinion/editorials/article254287998.html

At 40.5% fully vaccinated, Idaho is 3rd from last among US states.  Only WV and WY are lower.