Ban Vaping?

[gowlerk 2,251]

26 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

No good reason for smoking either. Let's ban that first.

It's not practical to ban smoking. Instead we regulate it and work hard to discourage it. Same as we should for vaping.

[yobnoc 142]

18 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I hate the vaping trend. I absolutely think it's bad inhaled first or second hand. But, because I had high hopes that it would help smokers quit I decided to allow it around the DZ outside of the designated smoking areas. So far I don't think anyone here has gone from smoking to vaping to neither. So now we have vaping around, which has it's own problems, but at least they aren't smoking

What do you base your opinion on that it's absolutely bad whether inhaled first or secondhand?  Gut feeling?  Intuition?  It can't be based on actual evidence

[gowlerk 2,251]

14 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

What do you base your opinion on that it's absolutely bad whether inhaled first or secondhand?  Gut feeling?  Intuition?  It can't be based on actual evidence

Inhaling foreign substances is bad for you until proven differently. It's not up to non-users to prove anything.

 

[yobnoc 142]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Inhaling foreign substances is bad for you until proven differently. It's not up to non-users to prove anything.

 

That's not how that works.  Your allegation is it's dangerous.  Therefore the burden of proof is on you.  Propylene glycol is the main ingredient (there are only 3 ingredients in nicotine e-liquid; it's not "countless unknown chemicals" as many people clumsily describe it), which is also the delivery agent used in asthma inhalers.  So...are asthma inhalers dangerous?  Should we ban use of asthma inhalers in public places?

Edited September 12, 2019 by yobnoc

[gowlerk 2,251]

12 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

That's not how that works.  Your allegation is it's dangerous.  Therefore the burden of proof is on you.  Propylene glycol is the main ingredient (there are only 3 ingredients in nicotine e-liquid; it's not "countless unknown chemicals" as many people clumsily describe it), which is also the delivery agent used in asthma inhalers.  So...are asthma inhalers dangerous?  Should we ban use of asthma inhalers in public places?

That completely misses the fact that heating these substances changes them. It also ignores the fact that different people and companies add things to their juice. Asthma inhalers are prescription medications and are indeed known to have bad side effects in some people. They are only allowed because their therapeutic value for some people is greater than their potential harm. It only took a little quick research to find that propylene glycol is a potent contact allergen for some people.

I am going to assume that you are a user and therefore feel a need to defend vaping. I'd advise you to give up both vaping and defending it. Especially defending it as it is not defensible. And exposing other people to it is completely indefensible. It is roughly the same as a smoker defending smoking. You are likely addicted and your addiction is clouding your judgement.

I am coming at this from the point of view of a man who smoked for 25 years before quitting roughly 15 years ago. Two packs a day. In a closed car with both my wife and myself filling the cabin containing my two helpless children with smoke. One of my most shameful actions. Far worse than what you are doing.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by gowlerk

[yobnoc 142]

38 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That completely misses the fact that heating these substances changes them. It also ignores the fact that different people and companies add things to their juice. Asthma inhalers are prescription medications and are indeed known to have bad side effects in some people. They are only allowed because their therapeutic value for some people is greater than their potential harm. It only took a little quick research to find that propylene glycol is a potent contact allergen for some people.

I am going to assume that you are a user and therefore feel a need to defend vaping. I'd advise you to give up both vaping and defending it. Especially defending it as it is not defensible. And exposing other people to it is completely indefensible. It is roughly the same as a smoker defending smoking. You are likely addicted and your addiction is clouding your judgement.

I am coming at this from the point of view of a man who smoked for 25 years before quitting roughly 15 years ago. Two packs a day. In a closed car with both my wife and myself filling the cabin containing my two helpless children with smoke. One of my most shameful actions. Far worse than what you are doing.

 

 

You still haven't made one convincing argument that it is harmful.

It is pretty clear that you are content with just believing what you want without actually doing any research on it.  Which is odd, because I am pretty sure you're more intellectual than that. 

My defense of it is a survival instinct.  I was able to quit smoking cigarettes by utilizing e-cigarettes.  I enjoyed smoking, but I also knew it was bad for me and would likely cause me to die prematurely.  I am also heavily addicted to nicotine and without getting into specifics, I struggle with addiction problems in other facets of life too.  So since I wanted to be around for my kids as long as possible, I kicked cigarettes and switched to vapor.  And there is zero science that bears out that it is bad for my health or the people around me. 

So, the therapeutic value of e-cigarettes for me is that it allowed me to quit smoking combustible nicotine products, which are indeed proven to have first and second-hand adverse health risks. 

And if someone has a contact allergy to propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin, they're jolly well fucked anyway, because those ingredients are found in a ton of everyday consumables.  Please do the barest amount of actual research on the subject, instead of relying on media hype and politicians who are influenced by big tobacco money.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

1 hour ago, yobnoc said:

What do you base your opinion on that it's absolutely bad whether inhaled first or secondhand?  Gut feeling?  Intuition?  It can't be based on actual evidence

Nicotine is bad for you. 

 I would think that vaping nicotine is less dangerous than smoking tobacco, because there are fewer 'other things' in it.

But that doesn't change the fact that nicotine is not a good thing to take in.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/240820.php

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 hour ago, yobnoc said:

What do you base your opinion on that it's absolutely bad whether inhaled first or secondhand?  Gut feeling?  Intuition?  It can't be based on actual evidence

I said "I think", I won't claim to know. In truth, it is more of a gut feeling. But:

"According to the CDC, substances found in vaping aerosol include:

Ultrafine particles that can be inhaled deep into the lungs.

Flavoring like diacetyl, a chemical linked to a serious, irreversible lung disease called obliterative bronchiolitis.

So-called volatile organic compounds, or gases emitted into the air that may have adverse health effects.

Cancer-causing chemicals.

Heavy metals, including nickel, tin and lead."

[yobnoc 142]

4 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Nicotine is bad for you. 

 I would think that vaping nicotine is less dangerous than smoking tobacco, because there are fewer 'other things' in it.

But that doesn't change the fact that nicotine is not a good thing to take in.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/240820.php

Caffeine too

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/285194.php

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

5 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

Caffeine too

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/285194.php

True. But I don't puff out huge clouds of caffeine when I drink a cup of coffee. 

I don't expose anyone else to it.

[yobnoc 142]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

I said "I think", I won't claim to know. In truth, it is more of a gut feeling. But:

"According to the CDC, substances found in vaping aerosol include:

Ultrafine particles that can be inhaled deep into the lungs.

Flavoring like diacetyl, a chemical linked to a serious, irreversible lung disease called obliterative bronchiolitis.

So-called volatile organic compounds, or gases emitted into the air that may have adverse health effects.

Cancer-causing chemicals.

Heavy metals, including nickel, tin and lead."

I'd be interested to see the actual testing methodology and products used before accepting a blanket statement on it.  There was a study done in Britain years back that made headlines because they claimed that formaldehyde was found to be a byproduct of vaping.  Turns out when you read the study, they heated dry kanthal (the metal commonly used in e-cigarettes when they first hit the market almost 2 decades ago) to 1000F (2-3 times the functioning temperature of an e-cigarette) and after 100 consecutive seconds at that temperature, they were able to cause the kanthal to break down chemically and release a trace amount of formaldehyde.  It didn't matter that the study was literally engineered to produce the outcome they wanted rather than an objective experiment; the damage was already done.  Millions of people read the headline and didn't bother to look any further into it, just as people are doing yet again.  So, forgive me for not trusting these statements without backing them up with the actual peer-reviewed scientific studies.

And that diacetyl?  When you enjoy one bag of microwave popcorn, you inhale more aerosolyzed diacetyl than you would in a full year of regular e-cigarette use.

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 minute ago, yobnoc said:

I'd be interested to see the actual testing methodology and products used before accepting a blanket statement on it.  There was a study done in Britain years back that made headlines because they claimed that formaldehyde was found to be a byproduct of vaping.  Turns out when you read the study, they heated dry kanthal (the metal commonly used in e-cigarettes when they first hit the market almost 2 decades ago) to 1000F (2-3 times the functioning temperature of an e-cigarette) and after 100 consecutive seconds at that temperature, they were able to cause the kanthal to break down chemically and release a trace amount of formaldehyde.  It didn't matter that the study was literally engineered to produce the outcome they wanted rather than an objective experiment; the damage was already done.  Millions of people read the headline and didn't bother to look any further into it, just as people are doing yet again.  So, forgive me for not trusting these statements without backing them up with the actual peer-reviewed scientific studies.

And that diacetyl?  When you enjoy one bag of microwave popcorn, you inhale more aerosolyzed diacetyl than you would in a full year of regular e-cigarette use.

Brother, I am in no way opposed to your use. If it keeps you off smokes It's a win in my book. I won't defend my position which is merely that I have my doubts that it's all good.  I'm also willing to suffer my doubts if it does you good. 

[yobnoc 142]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Brother, I am in no way opposed to your use. If it keeps you off smokes It's a win in my book. I won't defend my position which is merely that I have my doubts that it's all good.  I'm also willing to suffer my doubts if it does you good. 

I'm not here to shame; I just really want people to educate themselves on this as much as possible.  I just don't want to end up in a situation where I end up back smoking cigarettes again, and I'm afraid of that.  No other cessation method worked for me.

[gowlerk 2,251]

13 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

So, the therapeutic value of e-cigarettes for me is that it allowed me to quit smoking combustible nicotine products, which are indeed proven to have first and second-hand adverse health risks. 

That puts you in the one category of vape users who are better off vaping than not vaping. Nicotine withdrawal can also be managed by gum and patches. There is not a definitive answer to the question of how harmful vaping is. But given that our lungs are not designed to cope with vaping, are quite sensitive, and are very good at transferring many chemicals into our bloodstream it is extremely unlikely that it is harmless. If I were in charge of it you would require an Rx to get your medication. This would make it more restrictive and less likely for children to become nicotine addicted. I would also restrict your ability to vape in common areas. Partly to protect others from the clouds and partly to keep it where children don't see it.

[JoeWeber 2,836]

1 minute ago, yobnoc said:

I'm not here to shame; I just really want people to educate themselves on this as much as possible.  I just don't want to end up in a situation where I end up back smoking cigarettes again, and I'm afraid of that.  No other cessation method worked for me.

Brother, you did not shame me. I'm in your corner. I don't like the vaping thing for my own reasons, which is sufficient. Honestly, it's like a fart in the airplane. Is it hurting me? No. Will I agree it's good? No, again. Do I need further education? Um, I don't think so.

So, here we are and I'll cheer you and other friends on if it keeps you away from smokes.

[yobnoc 142]

6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Brother, you did not shame me. I'm in your corner. I don't like the vaping thing for my own reasons, which is sufficient. Honestly, it's like a fart in the airplane. Is it hurting me? No. Will I agree it's good? No, again. Do I need further education? Um, I don't think so.

So, here we are and I'll cheer you and other friends on if it keeps you away from smokes.

Ok, but on a less serious note, I've never smelled a fart in the plane that reminded me of strawberry shortcake

[JoeWeber 2,836]

2 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

Ok, but on a less serious note, I've never smelled a fart in the plane that reminded me of strawberry shortcake

I can recommend an excellent otolaryngologist. There's no need to live that way.

[gowlerk 2,251]

This is why I support suppressing, but not banning vaping.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/health/vaping-detectors-school-trnd/index.html

[normiss 855]

57 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

This is why I support suppressing, but not banning vaping.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/health/vaping-detectors-school-trnd/index.html

We had Vice Principals and smoke detectors in the bathrooms in high school.

Seemed rather effective for cigarettes and weed both.

Also the random teachers that refused bathroom breaks because "You kids are just going to smoke something anyway!"

[gowlerk 2,251]

4 minutes ago, normiss said:

We had Vice Principals and smoke detectors in the bathrooms in high school.

Seemed rather effective for cigarettes and weed both.

Also the random teachers that refused bathroom breaks because "You kids are just going to smoke something anyway!"

Teacher I am fully aware of the rules, everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school.

[ryoder 1,590]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Teacher I am fully aware of the rules, everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school.

LOL!

[JerryBaumchen 1,444]

2 hours ago, normiss said:

We had Vice Principals and smoke detectors in the bathrooms in high school.

Hi Mark,

When I was in high school [ a year or more before you ] there was an area out behind one of the buildings where the kids would gather to smoke.  It was not uncommon for a few teachers to be there smoking with them.

Jerry Baumchen

[normiss 855]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Mark,

When I was in high school [ a year or more before you ] there was an area out behind one of the buildings where the kids would gather to smoke.  It was not uncommon for a few teachers to be there smoking with them.

Jerry Baumchen

We had that too, I always wondered why that place was fine, as was JJ's wood shop because he was too old and blind to see you but could smell it, and yet the bathrooms were off limits.

[Coreece 190]

3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

When I was in high school. . .there was an area out behind one of the buildings where the kids would gather to smoke.  It was not uncommon for a few teachers to be there smoking with them.

I just smoked in the teacher's lounge when they were all in class.

[yobnoc 142]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

I just smoked in the teacher's lounge when they were all in class.

#ThugLife