Socialist nightmare?

[BIGUN 1,486]

On 6/27/2019 at 3:07 AM, kallend said:

So here I am in Socialist Norway.

You "scientist" types need to study up on Political Science. Just cause AOC and Bernie point to Nordic countries and call them "Socialist" doesn't make it true. The Nordic countries are NOT socialist. When the conversation starts out on a ridiculous note; it remains ridiculous. Long as you're there; how about you run up to Erna and ask her and her conservative party what type of government Norway is - she'll respond that we're just right of center. In fact; why don't you just stay and learn just how well a free-market capitalist society works. While you're there you might also learn that the nordic countries are in the top three true democracies in the world.   

[Skwrl 56]

On 6/27/2019 at 5:23 AM, millertime24 said:

Cool. If it seems a good fit regarding your veiws/values then I suggest you seek Norwegian citizenship. 

Yes. Because wanting to make America better is totally unpatriotic.  

[Skwrl 56]

28 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You "scientist" types need to study up on Political Science. Just cause AOC and Bernie point to Nordic countries and call them "Socialist" doesn't make it true. The Nordic countries are NOT socialist. When the conversation starts out on a ridiculous note; it remains ridiculous. Long as you're there; how about you run up to Erna and ask her and her conservative party what type of government Norway is - she'll respond that we're just right of center. In fact; why don't you just stay and learn just how well a free-market capitalist society works. While you're there you might also learn that the nordic countries are in the top three true democracies in the world.   

Your argument reminded me of this. 

[billvon 3,118]

4 hours ago, Rick said:

I think you pay for your school with labor.

Agreed.  The fact that it was a socialist program just means the government is in control of the program where you pay for school with your labor.

[normiss 897]

7 minutes ago, billvon said:

Agreed.  The fact that it was a socialist program just means the government is in control of the program where you pay for school with your labor.

Then I hope it's the only socialist program that requires your body, life, and soul as collateral.

I pretty much thought THAT was the payment for the training, not the actual labor.

[billvon 3,118]

8 minutes ago, normiss said:

Then I hope it's the only socialist program that requires your body, life, and soul as collateral.

Well, I use air traffic control a fair amount.  They only seem to want a flight plan.  

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, Skwrl said:

Yes. Because wanting to make America better is totally unpatriotic.  

Ya, and I suppose one could better their overweight wife by telling her how fat and ugly she looks compared to women in Sweden. . .

[billvon 3,118]

5 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Ya, and I suppose one could better their overweight wife by telling her how fat and ugly she looks compared to women in Sweden. . .

Better to encourage her to go on hikes and bike rides with you by telling her how much more fun that is than watching TV!

[Coreece 190]

7 minutes ago, billvon said:

14 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Ya, and I suppose one could better their overweight wife by telling her how fat and ugly she looks compared to women in Sweden. . .

Better to encourage her to go on hikes and bike rides with you by telling her how much more fun that is than watching TV!

Exactly, there is good technique and bad technique, and the wife would probably respond differently to each.  Snarky posts are going to get a snarky response.

[DJL 235]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

You "scientist" types need to study up on Political Science. Just cause AOC and Bernie point to Nordic countries and call them "Socialist" doesn't make it true. The Nordic countries are NOT socialist. When the conversation starts out on a ridiculous note; it remains ridiculous. Long as you're there; how about you run up to Erna and ask her and her conservative party what type of government Norway is - she'll respond that we're just right of center. In fact; why don't you just stay and learn just how well a free-market capitalist society works. While you're there you might also learn that the nordic countries are in the top three true democracies in the world.   

I take that to be the punchline he's making.  Whenever someone brings up a positive aspect of a strong social program in one of these European countries Republicans yell "SOCIALISM!!" despite the fact that it's not actually a socialist country.

[BIGUN 1,486]

16 minutes ago, DJL said:

"SOCIALISM!!" despite the fact that it's not actually a socialist country.

I can more than agree that both sides need some serious education.  

[DJL 235]

3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I can more than agree that both sides need some serious education.  

Definitely but that's no fun.

[BIGUN 1,486]

1 minute ago, DJL said:

Definitely but that's no fun

Food-fight fun or put food on the table fun. 

Edited June 28, 2019 by BIGUN

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

12 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Food-fight fun or put food on the table fun. 

Hi Keith,

Looks like you are getting your 1-liners from Kamala Harris, that old socialist.

Jerry Baumchen

[BIGUN 1,486]

Just now, JerryBaumchen said:

Looks like you are getting your 1-liners from Kamala Harris, that old socialist.

I gotta admit - she did good with that one. 

[Coreece 190]

4 hours ago, DJL said:

I take that to be the punchline he's making.  Whenever someone brings up a positive aspect of a strong social program in one of these European countries Republicans yell "SOCIALISM!!" despite the fact that it's not actually a socialist country.

No, he clearly means that conservatives are always saying "hey look at Venezuela, it's socialistic and  all fucked up" even tho (he claims) it's not socialist.

And so then he basically says "hey, look at "Socialist Norway" and the rest of Western Europe with "social programs" that are doing so well.  (and  never mind the shit hole parts where it's not going so well)

And as usual he does it all in a rather weaselly way - implying that it's all socialism over there where things are all good - but if you call him out on it and say that they're not actually socialist, he can just say "I never said socialism, I said "SOCIAL PROGRAMS."

And then you can say, "but you said "Socialist Norway," to which he'll condescendingly reply that you have a reading comprehension problem and that only a moron wouldn't have noticed the sarcasm. . .

Edited June 28, 2019 by Coreece

[SkyDekker 1,465]

6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

You "scientist" types need to study up on Political Science. Just cause AOC and Bernie point to Nordic countries and call them "Socialist" doesn't make it true. The Nordic countries are NOT socialist. When the conversation starts out on a ridiculous note; it remains ridiculous. Long as you're there; how about you run up to Erna and ask her and her conservative party what type of government Norway is - she'll respond that we're just right of center. In fact; why don't you just stay and learn just how well a free-market capitalist society works. While you're there you might also learn that the nordic countries are in the top three true democracies in the world.   

Why do you think a democracy cannot be a socialist state/country? Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Portugal has been a semi-presidential representative democratic republic since 1976. The pre-amble to the constitution that established that democracy states: "The Constituent Assembly affirms the Portuguese people's decision to [...] open up a path towards a socialist society" 

 

[millertime24 8]

11 hours ago, Skwrl said:

Yes. Because wanting to make America better is totally unpatriotic.  

Define "better". Better for whom? Better how? Better at the expense of what?

[billvon 3,118]

36 minutes ago, millertime24 said:

Define "better". Better for whom? Better how? Better at the expense of what?

Those are the important questions.  However, in general, better for everyone is the goal, rather than better for the top 1%.  More rights, less discrimination, less assault, less pollution.

[Skwrl 56]

9 hours ago, millertime24 said:

Define "better". Better for whom? Better how? Better at the expense of what?

You are missing my point. I’m not saying that socialism would make the US better.  I’m saying that Kallend, in the case, is (effectively) saying “hey I noticed that another country does things like x, and their people seem to benefit from it”. The response (paraphrasing) “well, if you like it so much you should move there” is an dodge of the issue.  Effectively saying “America, love it exactly as it is now or leave it” isn’t patriotic. It’s cowardly - it’s being unwilling to have a dialogue about alternative ways of doing things that may (or might not) make things better. 

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, Skwrl said:

11 hours ago, millertime24 said:

Define "better". Better for whom? Better how? Better at the expense of what?

You are missing my point. I’m not saying that socialism would make the US better.  I’m saying that Kallend, in the case, is (effectively) saying “hey I noticed that another country does things like x, and their people seem to benefit from it”. The response (paraphrasing) “well, if you like it so much you should move there” is an dodge of the issue.  Effectively saying “America, love it exactly as it is now or leave it” isn’t patriotic. It’s cowardly - it’s being unwilling to have a dialogue about alternative ways of doing things that may (or might not) make things better. 

But all Kallend did was say how he didn't see things like beggars and homelessness without explaining the extent of the problem and how they're actually managing it.  Norway's homelessness only started to decline in recent years largely due to solutions modeled after successful programs already in place in the United States.

And I think others are trying to say that Norway isn't doing well because they're socialist, they're doing well because they're an oil rich free market society with a relatively small population comprised of heavily taxed wealthy people that can provide robust social programs for things like healthcare and secondary electric cars for needy rich white people.

[BIGUN 1,486]

16 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Why do you think a democracy cannot be a socialist state/country? Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Socialism is not Democratic.To use the, "semi-presidential representative democratic republic" of Portugal as your go-to example demonstrates a true lack of political and socio-economic understanding. You are placing that "look a good thing" right up their with the same forms of government as Russia, China, Syria, Palestine, etc.  Do you really think that's a good direction to go - cause if so; by all means move to one of those countries to enjoy and prosper (well, not so much on prosper) 

Many countries can claim to be a "Democratic Republic" in their constitution, but not every government conducts itself in that constitutional manner.  Even the U.S. is not a true direct democracy - it is a representative democracy. Please go back and start with Aristotle's "Politics" and work your way forward.

[Skwrl 56]

3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Socialism is not Democratic.To use the, "semi-presidential representative democratic republic" of Portugal as your go-to example demonstrates a true lack of political and socio-economic understanding. You are placing that "look a good thing" right up their with the same forms of government as Russia, China, Syria, Palestine, etc.  Do you really think that's a good direction to go - cause if so; by all means move to one of those countries to enjoy and prosper (well, not so much on prosper) 

Many countries can claim to be a "Democratic Republic" in their constitution, but not every government conducts itself in that constitutional manner.  Even the U.S. is not a true direct democracy - it is a representative democracy. Please go back and start with Aristotle's "Politics" and work your way forward.

One is a mechanism of government, the other is an economic system.  You are saying a country couldn’t democratically agree to have collective ownership of certain key industries agreed upon by the people vs private ownership of those same assets?

You’re talking apples and oranges.   

 

[Coreece 190]

9 minutes ago, Skwrl said:

You’re talking apples and oranges. 

Much like comparing the U.S to Norway. . .

Hmmm, I wonder which country would be the orange?

[Skwrl 56]

9 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Much like comparing the U.S to Norway. . .

Hmmm, I wonder which country would be the orange?

One literally can compare *any* two counties with one another.  On any objective metric, you can do side by side comparisons.

The differences between political systems and economic systems don’t work that way.  One is about how assets and resources are allocated and used.  The other is about who decides what policies the counties will adopt.  There’s overlap (“what are our policies on how the market will work?”) but there are lots of parts that don’t overlap, as well.  

So... no