Trump, the Great Orator

[yobnoc 142]

5 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

No, never happen. I do support Christ's theocracy after His Second Coming. That's a long way off.

I didn't ask if you thought it was possible.  I asked if you support the idea.

[billvon 3,090]

11 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

By any chance are you a member of one of the Christian pacifist denominations? If that be the case I can never adequately stand against your doctrine. Because that is the doctrine.

I doubt it.  I was raised Catholic.  I go to a Unitarian church now, where they are not much into denominations (or doctrines.)

But the above post had no doctrine, other than that which is based on the actual words of Christ.   I am surprised you so often stand opposed to them.

[wmw999 2,560]

7 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

I am not able to connect your response to my patriotism.

However, wars are fought to gain territory, resources, and power over others. If ideologies affect safety, freedom, and liberty of my family, including my community and my country, then yes, I consider going to war.

BTW, sinners are to be loved individually. When they come at you in numbers it is best to deter their advance and neutralize them as efficiently and as quickly as possible.

You are a wife and a mother and like mine, except my paternal grandmother, I understand that you eschew violence. I am not programmed that way. There are professional born again, Spirit filled, Bible-believing Christian warriors. We need them. I have an adopted grandson and soon to be grandson-in-law actively pursuing that path now. I love them, pray for and am proud of them.

I'm looking at the synonyms. The vast majority of them are pejorative, because they're "my way or the highway" or "I rule, you suck" types of patriotism. Country is not a zero-sum game, where your "winning" means your "enemies" have to identifiably lose. 

How did Obama affect the safety, freedom, or liberty of your family? 

And if, by "liberty," you mean you want the liberty to discriminate against people you disagree with, well, that kind of implies that you think you have more rights than they do. Is that so? Are all men (i.e. people) created equal, or are people like you, the "real Americans" a little more equal and better able to judge what others actually need.

Most real warriors I know prefer peaceful resolutions. They're cheaper in both money and human life. They might be more willing to approach war than I am, but then I'm also not the "peace at all costs" pacifist that you seem to think I am.

Wendy P.

[RonD1120 62]

23 hours ago, billvon said:

I doubt it.  I was raised Catholic.  I go to a Unitarian church now, where they are not much into denominations (or doctrines.)

But the above post had no doctrine, other than that which is based on the actual words of Christ.   I am surprised you so often stand opposed to them.

I worked with a couple of Unitarians in the past. One was a former sex slave and heroin addict. The other was a Vietnam veteran, EWO in F-4s. Both good people and I liked and enjoyed our program relationships. I considered both pacifists and curbed my conversations with them to work-related subjects only.

 

[RonD1120 62]

18 hours ago, wmw999 said:

I'm looking at the synonyms. The vast majority of them are pejorative, because they're "my way or the highway" or "I rule, you suck" types of patriotism. Country is not a zero-sum game, where your "winning" means your "enemies" have to identifiably lose. 

How did Obama affect the safety, freedom, or liberty of your family? 

And if, by "liberty," you mean you want the liberty to discriminate against people you disagree with, well, that kind of implies that you think you have more rights than they do. Is that so? Are all men (i.e. people) created equal, or are people like you, the "real Americans" a little more equal and better able to judge what others actually need.

Most real warriors I know prefer peaceful resolutions. They're cheaper in both money and human life. They might be more willing to approach war than I am, but then I'm also not the "peace at all costs" pacifist that you seem to think I am.

Wendy P.

I like the idea that liberty is the freedom to do what is right not the right to do what is wrong.

Many folks in my tribe are basically pacifists. I belong to the warrior clan. I am part of the security team and carry a weapon to church services. The peace-seeking members have often stated that they are more comfortable with the security team in place.

Last year I went to see my physician and forgot to leave my weapon in the car. The office policy was no firearms on the premises. When I told the nurse, she said not to worry. Most of them had CC permits and they feel more comfortable around people who arm themselves.

So, what I am saying is that I and my clan are not warmongers. We choose to be prepared because evil exists. We do seek peace but are spiritually oriented to be professional warriors.

[turtlespeed 226]

3 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

I like the idea that liberty is the freedom to do what is right not the right to do what is wrong.

Many folks in my tribe are basically pacifists. I belong to the warrior clan. I am part of the security team and carry a weapon to church services. The peace-seeking members have often stated that they are more comfortable with the security team in place.

Last year I went to see my physician and forgot to leave my weapon in the car. The office policy was no firearms on the premises. When I told the nurse, she said not to worry. Most of them had CC permits and they feel more comfortable around people who arm themselves.

So, what I am saying is that I and my clan are not warmongers. We choose to be prepared because evil exists. We do seek peace but are spiritually oriented to be professional warriors.

To me - Liberty is not The righth to do wrong - OR - the freedom to do right.

To me - Liberty is not having your choices limited.

There hasn't been liberty in this country in a long time.

[jakee 1,571]

21 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

To me - Liberty is not The righth to do wrong - OR - the freedom to do right.

To me - Liberty is not having your choices limited.

There hasn't been liberty in this country in a long time.

Liberty with such a broad definition can only ever happen at an individual level, it's impossible to have it throughout society. The only social structure that offers it is anarchy, but the vast majority of people living within an anarchic society will in practice have less liberty than those living in a society where it is officially limited.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

33 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

To me - Liberty is not The righth to do wrong - OR - the freedom to do right.

To me - Liberty is not having your choices limited.

There hasn't been liberty in this country in a long time.

Isn't following the law a restriction on liberty?

[billvon 3,090]

34 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

To me - Liberty is not The righth to do wrong - OR - the freedom to do right.

To me - Liberty is not having your choices limited.

There hasn't been liberty in this country in a long time.

Since around 1600 or so.  (And for the continent as a whole, for a long time before that.)

You're not free to rape anyone you like.  You're not free to murder anyone.  You're not free to burn down your neighbor's house because you are cold.  I suspect you even support those laws, because you don't want to be killed or have your house burn down.  Those are restrictions on liberty, but they are restrictions that are OK with you.  So you don't truly want unlimited liberty - like everyone else, you want liberty restricted by laws that protect you and other members of society.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Isn't following the law a restriction on liberty?

Yes - 

See the last sentence.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Liberty with such a broad definition can only ever happen at an individual level, it's impossible to have it throughout society. The only social structure that offers it is anarchy, but the vast majority of people living within an anarchic society will in practice have less liberty than those living in a society where it is officially limited.

Pragmatism keeps it more at the social level - but I concede your point.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

  So you don't truly want unlimited liberty - like everyone else, you want liberty restricted by laws that protect you and other members of society.

Your assumption is wrong, Not true, false, and incorrect.

What I want is a society that doesn't need those restrictions.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

Yes - 

See the last sentence.

The last sentence doesn't make sense. There have been laws in place in your country from the very first day. Hence, saying there hasn't been liberty in America in a long time is stupid. Under your definition there has never been liberty in America.

[billvon 3,090]

2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Your assumption is wrong, Not true, false, and incorrect.

You oppose laws against rape and murder?

[jakee 1,571]

16 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

What I want is a society that doesn't need those restrictions.

Don't we all. But when did we start discussing fantasy?

[turtlespeed 226]

11 minutes ago, jakee said:

Don't we all. But when did we start discussing fantasy?

When Bill became clairvoyant and discovered he knows what I want.

[jakee 1,571]

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

When Bill became clairvoyant and discovered he knows what I want.

But you were replying to Ron when you gave your definition of liberty that only works in a fantasy world. 

[headoverheels 333]

9 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

What I want is a society that doesn't need those restrictions.

Dream on.

[gowlerk 2,260]

4 hours ago, headoverheels said:

Dream on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ca5y1qj848

 

[billvon 3,090]

8 hours ago, headoverheels said:

Dream on.

Yep.

It's funny.  When we talk about solar, we hear about how it's all imaginary unicorn farts and pretty rainbows.  When we talk about guns, we hear "well, there are bad people out there!  Rather than be judged by twelve than carried by six.  Need good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns.  People can be bad."

But when it comes to his definition of liberty, his beliefs are based in a wholly imaginary perfect world that doesn't exist.

[turtlespeed 226]

On 6/28/2019 at 12:02 PM, billvon said:

Yep.

It's funny.  When we talk about solar, we hear about how it's all imaginary unicorn farts and pretty rainbows.  When we talk about guns, we hear "well, there are bad people out there!  Rather than be judged by twelve than carried by six.  Need good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns.  People can be bad."

But when it comes to his definition of liberty, his beliefs are based in a wholly imaginary perfect world that doesn't exist.

I see.  So wanting something better is ridiculous - but wanting solar and better atmosphere - even though the majority of the people on earth don't care - is reasonable.

 

No wonder liberals are so fucked up.

[billvon 3,090]

2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

I see.  So wanting something better is ridiculous - but wanting solar and better atmosphere - even though the majority of the people on earth don't care - is reasonable

Not even close to anything I was saying.  

Are you ok?

[turtlespeed 226]

32 minutes ago, billvon said:

Not even close to anything I was saying.  

Are you ok?

I'm fine - just tired of the hypocrisy.

 

[jakee 1,571]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I'm fine - just tired of the hypocrisy.

Get over yourself. You said something dumb, why not just own it?

 

Your definition of liberty is impossible in the real world - and you've acknowledged that - however you also said "There hasn't been liberty in this country in a long time." as if it had once existed. What did you mean? When did it exist?

[billvon 3,090]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I'm fine - just tired of the hypocrisy.

Then stop employing it.

You know full well that every law out there takes away your rights.  And you support most of those laws.  I am certain, for example, you support laws against rape and murder, even though those laws take away some of your rights.  So stop with the intentional-misunderstanding BS.