Just a reminder

[normiss 883]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

You might also wait and see if the model Y will be a better fit.  (coming this summer.)

I'm anxious for the truck model capable of pulling 16-20k. Might have to get the Benz for that though.

[SethInMI 174]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

You might also wait and see if the model Y will be a better fit.

I'm not an SUV person, I'm a 5 door wagon person, but yeah the Y may be closer to that idea than the 3. 

[DJL 235]

On 10/25/2019 at 12:52 AM, JoeWeber said:

Quantum leaps?

Oh boy...

[airdvr 210]

On 10/29/2019 at 7:51 PM, SethInMI said:

i'm posting in here because I recently decided my next car will be a Model 3. The AWD version. I'm still a few years from a new car, so I'm not going all brenthutch and setting some prediction in stone, but the Model 3 sure does appeal to me right now.

1. I use my car for commuting like 99.99 percent of the time. An electric means I never have to "fill up" at a service station. I hate doing that in the winter.

2. In winter, the dual motor AWD on the Model 3 is very capable. Better than my subie.

3. The auto-steer / auto-pilot will make the commute drive less tedious. Until it lulls me to a false sense of security and drives the car into an abutment.

4. the electric drivetrain gives the car a feeling that it has more than the 346 eqv. HP it is rated for, so it will feel plenty zippy.

I really hope mr hutch's pessimism is misplaced. Now we both have made predictions of a sort for the next few years,  and we will have to wait and see what the future holds... 

My son-in-law works for Aurora Innovations.  https://aurora.tech/aurora-driver  They are deep into the autonomous car.  He freely admitted that snow covered roads present a huge problem they haven't answered yet.

[normiss 883]

I had to do some work while on vacation, due to the beautiful campground in the Pisgah Forest, I had to hotspot in the parking lot of the Dillards where Skymama was scoring her deals.

There was a VERY busy Tesla charging station there. Every time we drove by after I first noticed it, the place was pretty full each time.

 

[DJL 235]

11 hours ago, airdvr said:

He freely admitted that snow covered roads present a huge problem they haven't answered yet.

I can answer that; if the car can't drive itself then it turns over control to the human or comes to a stop.  It's simply a case in which the vehicle cannot identify the surface as a road, this shouldn't be a big issue considering things like dirt roads, fields, areas under construction are always going to be places where we drive.

[SethInMI 174]

11 hours ago, airdvr said:

He freely admitted that snow covered roads present a huge problem they haven't answered yet.

Most autonomous car sensors, cameras and lidar, work in the visual or near-visual ranges. This means if a person struggles to make out what is going on ahead of them while they are driving, like in heavy rain or snow or fog, or just where to put the car wheels, like on snow covered roads, then an autonomous car will also struggle in those situations.

I expect while cameras and lidar are used, we are going to deal with autonomous cars that must slow down or stop in certain weather conditions. I really hope they can at least drive slow as much as possible as even 6-10mph is better than nothing. Sure in a heavy snow day it could take 2 hours to do a normal 20min drive, but even with people driving that often happens as there are auto-accidents that shut down traffic, and those would be greatly reduced.

 

[wmw999 2,567]

Some of the early adopters of self-driving cars will be rich people who are shitty drivers. Making them drive when conditions are at their worst might be kind of like having them dump their reserve on a first malfunction, and only then remember it’s a tiny one because it fit in their cool-looking rig. Or the IFR pilot who gets stuck in overcast. 

Different judgment might have to be taught  

Wendy P. 

[SethInMI 174]

28 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

early adopters of self-driving cars will be rich people who are shitty drivers. Making them drive when conditions are at their worst

actually the current tech path is to have autonomous taxi services, which makes sense as it keeps the cars utilized. But in that case, you may have passengers who don't know how to drive at all, or have not driven in a while, and asking them to drive an unfamiliar car in poor visibility is not a good idea. A middle ground would be a semi-autonomous "slow" mode where a passenger could guide the car along at a speed where the cars basic safety sensors could still work (6-15mph).

a taxi service is also going to have a lot of empty cars driving around, and there would not always be a place to pull over if they could not navigate, so even if you could take over and drive your autonomous car, you may stuck anyway.

[gowlerk 2,266]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

I can answer that; if the car can't drive itself then it turns over control to the human or comes to a stop.  It's simply a case in which the vehicle cannot identify the surface as a road, this shouldn't be a big issue considering things like dirt roads, fields, areas under construction are always going to be places where we drive.

What a great idea. When the weather conditions become the most difficult then the machine will shut down and leave control to the driver, who has not had any practice in good conditions and will now be expected to perform when things are at their worst. What could possibly go wrong?

[billvon 3,095]

12 hours ago, airdvr said:

 He freely admitted that snow covered roads present a huge problem they haven't answered yet.

Definitely true.  They also present a huge problem for human drivers.

[DJL 235]

13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

What a great idea. When the weather conditions become the most difficult then the machine will shut down and leave control to the driver, who has not had any practice in good conditions and will now be expected to perform when things are at their worst. What could possibly go wrong?

Plenty of ways that even an inexperienced driver could navigate a road at a speed appropriate for the conditions.

[gowlerk 2,266]

14 minutes ago, DJL said:

Plenty of ways that even an inexperienced driver could navigate a road at a speed appropriate for the conditions.

Other than possibly navigating it to a safe stop, I strongly disagree. If the machine is going to operate the vehicle then it must do so at all times. There can only be one pilot in command.

[DJL 235]

26 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Other than possibly navigating it to a safe stop, I strongly disagree. If the machine is going to operate the vehicle then it must do so at all times. There can only be one pilot in command.

Why?  There's no reason why a vehicle could not have some form of manual override and still maintain the braking and other safety features that could assist the driver.  In this fantastically hypothetical situation you wouldn't want a highway full of people at a standstill who could self-propel to a safer location as long as the tires can maintain traction.

[ryoder 1,590]

31 minutes ago, DJL said:

Why?  There's no reason why a vehicle could not have some form of manual override and still maintain the braking and other safety features that could assist the driver.  In this fantastically hypothetical situation you wouldn't want a highway full of people at a standstill who could self-propel to a safer location as long as the tires can maintain traction.

I disagree.

I see the greatest value in fully self-driving cars for people who cannot drive themselves due to:

1. Being too young to get a license. e.g. your elementary school kids can take an autonomous car to/from after-hours extracurricular activities at school.

2. Having lost a license due to traffic violations, (e.g. DUI), or for whatever reason, just don't have a license.

3. Having disabilities preventing driving, e.g. vision-loss, paralysis, dementia, etc. 

4. Not owning a car due to poverty, or just don't use a car often enough to justify the cost, making summoning a car on demand more economical.

I see these reasons much more compelling arguments for fully-autonomous cars, especially #3 & #4 for the elderly, than for fully-functional people who just don't want to drive.

[gowlerk 2,266]

Exactly, driverless autonomous cars are not really very useful unless  they can be used by people who could not otherwise drive. That’s the whole point

Edited November 5, 2019 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,898]

39 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I disagree.

I see the greatest value in fully self-driving cars for people who cannot drive themselves due to:

1. Being too young to get a license. e.g. your elementary school kids can take an autonomous car to/from after-hours extracurricular activities at school.

2. Having lost a license due to traffic violations, (e.g. DUI), or for whatever reason, just don't have a license.

3. Having disabilities preventing driving, e.g. vision-loss, paralysis, dementia, etc. 

4. Not owning a car due to poverty, or just don't use a car often enough to justify the cost, making summoning a car on demand more economical.

I see these reasons much more compelling arguments for fully-autonomous cars, especially #3 & #4 for the elderly, than for fully-functional people who just don't want to drive.

#5. Just being shitfaced drunk and riding around in the back from club to club, back seat driving all the way, telling the machine it's sucks at driving and WATCH THE FUCK OUT, GODDAMNIT!.

[jakee 1,583]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

I disagree.

I see the greatest value in fully self-driving cars for people who cannot drive themselves due to:

1. Being too young to get a license. e.g.....

Ok, but the scenario where fully autonomous cars with no human in command driver are fully and freely permitted in the roads is probably a reasonable distance in the future. In that case the issue that autonomous cars aren’t very good in snow or fog now may well not be an issue anymore by the time the things are allowed to operate. 

[DJL 235]

21 minutes ago, jakee said:

Ok, but the scenario where fully autonomous cars with no human in command driver are fully and freely permitted in the roads is probably a reasonable distance in the future. In that case the issue that autonomous cars aren’t very good in snow or fog now may well not be an issue anymore by the time the things are allowed to operate. 

I know, this is so incredibly hypothetical that I don't get why people adamantly say there cannot be a manual override.  In this scenario we're talking about will they have to wait for some other vehicle manned by the one human on earth who's been trained to drive to rescue everyone from 2 inches of snow?

[Coreece 190]

3 hours ago, DJL said:

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

 I strongly disagree. If the machine is going to operate the vehicle then it must do so at all times. There can only be one pilot in command.

Why? 

Because that's how the pros do it!

[airdvr 210]

21 minutes ago, DJL said:

I know, this is so incredibly hypothetical that I don't get why people adamantly say there cannot be a manual override.  In this scenario we're talking about will they have to wait for some other vehicle manned by the one human on earth who's been trained to drive to rescue everyone from 2 inches of snow?

Actually there will have to be a manual override.  Plenty of scenarios where I might want to take over.  Bad guy standing in front of my autonomous car?  I'd like to have the ability to decorate my hood with his innards if need be.

[gowlerk 2,266]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

Actually there will have to be a manual override.  Plenty of scenarios where I might want to take over.  Bad guy standing in front of my autonomous car?  I'd like to have the ability to decorate my hood with his innards if need be.

Why do you need to Weaponize your car? Don’t you already have heat with you at all times? Are you un American?

[turtlespeed 226]

5 hours ago, SethInMI said:

actually the current tech path is to have autonomous taxi services, which makes sense as it keeps the cars utilized. But in that case, you may have passengers who don't know how to drive at all, or have not driven in a while, and asking them to drive an unfamiliar car in poor visibility is not a good idea. A middle ground would be a semi-autonomous "slow" mode where a passenger could guide the car along at a speed where the cars basic safety sensors could still work (6-15mph).

a taxi service is also going to have a lot of empty cars driving around, and there would not always be a place to pull over if they could not navigate, so even if you could take over and drive your autonomous car, you may stuck anyway.

EASY fix.

Make them fly, instead.

[SethInMI 174]

2 hours ago, DJL said:

I know, this is so incredibly hypothetical that I don't get why people adamantly say there cannot be a manual override.  In this scenario we're talking about will they have to wait for some other vehicle manned by the one human on earth who's been trained to drive to rescue everyone from 2 inches of snow?

In your own car? There could be a manual override. In a driverless taxi? I would doubt there will be one. The taxi company has no way of knowing what kind of person is in the back of the car, and if they will be helping or hurting the situation by driving.

I suspect a driverless taxi service just won't operate when the weather will be such that it would likely be too bad to operate. Like commercial aviation now, if the weather is bad enough, the planes don't fly and passengers get stranded. As time goes on, those weather events will likely need to become more severe to shut down the system as it gets more robust.

 

[kallend 2,131]

20 hours ago, airdvr said:

My son-in-law works for Aurora Innovations.  https://aurora.tech/aurora-driver  They are deep into the autonomous car.  He freely admitted that snow covered roads present a huge problem they haven't answered yet.

They do for human drivers too, especially in southern states where it doesn't snow very often.