Death toll at the border

[turtlespeed 226]

2 hours ago, lippy said:

Is it illegal to walk across in the middle of the desert with the intent of requesting asylum?  Honest question.

Yes.

 

What Is Illegal Entry to the U.S.?

• entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place other than one designated by U.S. immigration officers (in other words, away from a border inspection point or other port of entry)
• eluding examination or inspection by U.S. immigration officers (people have tried everything from digging tunnels to hiding in the trunk of a friend’s car)
• attempting to enter or obtain entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or willful concealment of a material fact (which might include, for example, lying on a visa application or buying a false green card or other entry document).

(See Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code (U.S.C.), or Section 275 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) for the exact statutory language - www.uscis.gov/laws/immigration-and-nationality-act.)

 

Source: https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-enter-illegally.html

[normiss 883]

8 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Yes.

 

What Is Illegal Entry to the U.S.?

• entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place other than one designated by U.S. immigration officers (in other words, away from a border inspection point or other port of entry)
• eluding examination or inspection by U.S. immigration officers (people have tried everything from digging tunnels to hiding in the trunk of a friend’s car)
• attempting to enter or obtain entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or willful concealment of a material fact (which might include, for example, lying on a visa application or buying a false green card or other entry document).

(See Title 8, Section 1325 of the U.S. Code (U.S.C.), or Section 275 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) for the exact statutory language - www.uscis.gov/laws/immigration-and-nationality-act.)

 

Source: https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-enter-illegally.html

Thanks for making it clear the answer is actually No, it's not illegal to walk to the border and request asylum.

 

[turtlespeed 226]

2 hours ago, normiss said:

Thanks for making it clear the answer is actually No, it's not illegal to walk to the border and request asylum.

 

That isn't what he asked - 

He asked if it was illegal to cross the border in the dessert with an intent of asking for asylum.

 

the very first bulletin point pretty much covers crossing the border VERY VERY VERY Clearly.

Why are you having difficulty with that?

Here - for your convenience - 

""entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place other than one designated by U.S. immigration officers (in other words, away from a border inspection point or other port of entry)""

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Of course what turtle wont tell you:

1. Reports of CBP asking Mexican border patrol of physically stopping people from getting to a US border control point.
2. Reports of CBP physically not accepting asylum seekers and telling them to come back some other day.
3. By severely limiting the number of asylum seekers being allowed to enter border points people are being driven to illegal points of entry.
4. Border towns along the Mexico-US border are generally very dangerous and spending long periods of time waiting to be allowed to legally request asylum exponentially increases the risk of death.
5. An assumptions that people fleeing violence and persecution have time to stop and delve into the legalities of every step they take.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

16 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

hat sucks.  It does - and they have little to no fault in that.

That doesn't make hypocrisy OK.

If trying to get my family to a safer place makes me a hypocrite, I am fine with being a hypocrite. I guess for some people their own ego is more important than the well being of their family.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

If trying to get my family to a safer place makes me a hypocrite, I am fine with being a hypocrite. I guess for some people their own ego is more important than the well being of their family.

There are other options.

. . . and I am pretty sure that you are only assming you know what you are talking about, as you have never been in that position.  

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

There are other options.

. . . and I am pretty sure that you are only assming you know what you are talking about, as you have never been in that position.  

Sure, just like you are only assuming. Unless you are telling us you are really an illegal immigrant.

But, I am happy with my assumption I would happily be a hypocrite to get my family to safety.

Are you happy with your assumption that your ego would prevent you from providing for your family's basic needs?

[turtlespeed 226]

6 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Sure, just like you are only assuming. Unless you are telling us you are really an illegal immigrant.

Nope - but I have the occasion to have to deal with illegal immigrants on a daily basis.

6 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

But, I am happy with my assumption I would happily be a hypocrite to get my family to safety.

That is the liberal mindset.

6 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Are you happy with your assumption that your ego would prevent you from providing for your family's basic needs?

First - the strawman.  You make assumption that are just wrong.  My ego would never prevent me from providing anything for my family that they need.

Second - Life is hard . . . I have been destitute before - and I dragged myself back up and out of that.  I didn't use anyone but myself and my work ethic to do so.  I made good decisions, and followed through with a can do tenacious attitude.  I didn't violate my personal honor.

Are you happy with your assumption that you wouldn't be able to provide what your family needs without being a hypocrite?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

I have been destitute before - and I dragged myself back up and out of that.  I didn't use anyone but myself and my work ethic to do so.

You mean people didn't pay you? People didn't take a chance on you? You didn't use the framework of US society in dragging yourself up?

And because a white male in the US was able to do it a single mother in El Salvador should be held to he same standards?

Your reasoning simply doesn't stand up to reality.

[gowlerk 2,266]

29 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Second - Life is hard . . . I have been destitute before - and I dragged myself back up and out of that. 

There are people in the world who experience a level of destitution that you will never see. Some of them try to drag themselves out of it by risking a hazardous journey to the US. It is unlikely you will ever be as desperate as them. I'm not asking you to welcome all these strangers with open arms. Yes, I know that would encourage more and more to come and I agree that all countries need to control their borders. All I'm saying is that in blaming these people for being law breakers you are willfully choosing to blame victims. They are not necessarily victims of you, or of Trump, but they are victims. Denying them water in the desert in the hope that their deaths will discourage others is heinous. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by gowlerk

[turtlespeed 226]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

There are people in the world who experience a level of destitution that you will never see. Some of them try to drag themselves out of it by risking a hazardous journey to the US. It is unlikely you will ever be as desperate as them. I'm not asking you to welcome all these strangers with open arms. Yes, I know that would encourage more and more to come and I agree that all countries need to control their borders. All I'm saying is that in blaming these people for being law breakers you are willfully choosing to blame victims. They are not necessarily victims of you, or of Trump, but they are victims. Denying them water in the desert in the hope that their deaths will discourage others is heinous. 

You arrived half way at my position.

I have no issue with people helping.  Leave all the water in the desert you want - Littering is cool.

I have issue with people blaming the wrong people for their plight.

 

Where does it end?  At what level of victimhood is it acceptable to break the law?

And . . . if we are going to aid and abet law breaking victims - why not just volunteer to accept every refugee from everywhere?

How many points does illegal entry get you in Canada?

 

 

 

 

 

[gowlerk 2,266]

10 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

And . . . if we are going to aid and abet law breaking victims - why not just volunteer to accept every refugee from everywhere?

How many points does illegal entry get you in Canada?

Canada just had a crisis of sorts in that department. Somalis from New York, and from Minnesota were crossing at non official points and making refugee claims. Some of them in Manitoba suffered severe frostbite and lost fingers and toes. They were fleeing in fear of Trump/Miller policies about people from shithole countries losing their temporary status. What happens here is that they are processed, given more temporary status, and most of them eventually denied and sent back to your country.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

why not just volunteer to accept every refugee from everywhere

Well, that is kind of what international law says you are supposed to do.

So yes indeed, why not just follow the law?

[gowlerk 2,266]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Well, that is kind of what international law says you are supposed to do.

So yes indeed, why not just follow the law?

Sparta does not recognize the laws of the outside world.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Well, that is kind of what international law says you are supposed to do.

So yes indeed, why not just follow the law?

OK - so we can just push them through to Canada and let her follow the law, right?

 

Also - how can Canada have a crisis on immigration?

You can't possibly think that it would be your fault that the Somalis came to your country.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

OK - so we can just push them through to Canada and let her follow the law, right?

No, that would be against international law.

And considering you are on the internet and seem to be incapable of googling, how do you think an uneducated person fleeing violence and persecution should look up the legal way to request asylum?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

7 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Also - how can Canada have a crisis on immigration?

You can't possibly think that it would be your fault that the Somalis came to your country.

Not sure what your question is here?

[billvon 3,096]

5 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Where does it end?  At what level of victimhood is it acceptable to break the law?

I suspect, at some point in your life, you have driven over the speed limit.

And I am pretty sure that, if your children had been taken away from you because of that, and had died a week later, you would not consider that "acceptable."

[gowlerk 2,266]

3 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Also - how can Canada have a crisis on immigration?

You can't possibly think that it would be your fault that the Somalis came to your country.

Ok, then. Maybe tomorrow you will have some more useful thoughts.

[Coreece 190]

9 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Denying them water in the desert in the hope that their deaths will discourage others is heinous.

I know, sick.  They could've at least warned them with a few spiked heads planted on the border.

What's even more disgusting is the systematic channeling of migrants to their deaths that have been going on for the past 20+ years due to Clinton Admin border policy, with deaths peaking during the Obama Admin.  Interesting how nobody seemed to give a shit until Trump became president.

Do you think a wall would help funnel more migrants to official border crossings and decrease the amount of deaths on the US side? 

 

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I have issue with people blaming the wrong people for their plight.

It doesn't make it ok to incorrectly blame a government for enforcing its own laws.

1. The assholes below aren't enforcing the law, they're just being assholes

2. They deserve every ounce of blame they get

 

 

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Where does it end?  At what level of victimhood is it acceptable to break the law?

The possibility of getting 20 years for  helping someone in an imminent life and death situation is not only evil, but worth a few colorful expletives. . .

Edited May 31, 2019 by Coreece

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Ok, then. Maybe tomorrow you will have some more useful thoughts.

And you are basing that supposition on what actual data?

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

And you are basing that supposition on what actual data?

I see.  So now that we know I disagree with your thoughts, and the thoughts of many others here - I can call them useless.

What a grand argument technique. 

 

 

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

we know I disagree with your thoughts, and the thoughts of many others here

I don't know that.  I still believe that if we all suddenly found ourselves in a real situation where migrants were on the verge of dying, you would help without thought of it's legality because you'd instinctively know it's the right thing to do. 

I'm also pretty sure that we can all agree with you that any law prohibiting that should be relaxed and that migrants shouldn't cross illegally.

[kallend 2,131]

It is perfectly legal for an alien to come to the US border and request asylum.

Trump is now going to tax Americans until Mexico stops allowing people from Central America to exercise their legal right to seek admission to the United States. 

Trump still hasn't figured out that his tariffs are paid by US consumers and not the exporting nation.  (Well, I expect he does know but is just pandering to his poorly educated base).

 

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[BIGUN 1,465]

22 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Well, that is kind of what international law says you are supposed to do.

So yes indeed, why not just follow the law?

"There is no comprehensive legal instrument at the international level that establishes a framework for the governance of migration."

https://www.iom.int/international-migration-law