Sanctuary - what really happens when your bluff is called.

[DJL 235]

14 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I believe that a significant amount are illegal immigrants.

DHS/ICE says that most are U.S. citizens based upon arrests in Project Wildfire (Feb. 23 to March 31, 2015) and Project Shadowfire (Feb 15 to March 21, 2016)

Project Wildfire (Feb. 23 to March 31, 2015)

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ice-arrests-976-gang-members-and-associates-during-project-wildfire-surge#wcm-survey-target-id

"Most of the individuals arrested during Project Wildfire were U.S. citizens, but 199 foreign nationals were also arrested, from 18 countries in South and Central America, Asia, Africa, Europe and the Caribbean. 

Of the individuals arrested, 976 were gang members and associates. HSI agents also arrested – or assisted in the arrest – of 231 other individuals on federal and/or state criminal violations and administrative immigration violations, for a total of 1,207 arrests. Of the total 1,207 arrested, 1,057 were males and 150 were females."

Project Shadowfire (Feb 15 to March 21, 2016)

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ice-arrests-more-1100-operation-targeting-gangs

"Most of the individuals arrested during Project Shadowfire were U.S. citizens, but 239 foreign nationals from 13 countries in Central America, Asia, Europe and the Caribbean were also arrested. Of the 1,133 arrests, 915 were gang members and associates, 1,001 were charged with criminal offenses and 132 were arrested administratively for immigration violations."

EDIT:

And to take this back to where the conversation started, it's from your statement:

"Whom is it that you think is mostly in those gangs that are doing the killing and murdering?"

They are not "mostly" illegals, they are according to actual data from ICE "mostly" US citizens.

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by DJL

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Well, there you go using facts again.

Statistics. Data.

Don't you realize he feels that most of the gang members are illegal aliens?
He believes it. 

 

So it must be true.

[turtlespeed 226]

5 hours ago, DJL said:

Maybe you can help me out, you linked to a point in the article that talks about a tendency of Hispanic victims to not report their crimes to the police.  This sounds more like you agree that a better relationship with the police would help police find criminals.

That is true as you wrote it.  It seems that we do agree that a better relationship with the police would be beneficial - 

Its how we get to that point that we disagree.

 

[billvon 3,096]

19 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I believe that a significant amount are illegal immigrants.

If you consider 0.09% "significant."  Crime Report reports that 0.09 percent of illegal immigrants arrested are gang members.  The Journal of Criminology graphed the relationship of illegal immigrants to crime, and found the more illegal immigtants in a community, the less crime.  And the right wing Cato Institute compared the crime rates of native born US citizens to legal and illegal immigrants in Texas.  All crime rates were higher with native born.  Homicides were just under 4 per 100,000 for native born, under 3 for illegal aliens and under .5 for legal immigrants.

So if you are ever confronted by a gang of seedy looking individuals late at night, you better pray they are immigrants (legal OR illegal) and not native born Americans.

[turtlespeed 226]

3 minutes ago, billvon said:

If you consider 0.09% "significant."  Crime Report reports that 0.09 percent of illegal immigrants arrested are gang members.  The Journal of Criminology graphed the relationship of illegal immigrants to crime, and found the more illegal immigtants in a community, the less crime.  And the right wing Cato Institute compared the crime rates of native born US citizens to legal and illegal immigrants in Texas.  All crime rates were higher with native born.  Homicides were just under 4 per 100,000 for native born, under 3 for illegal aliens and under .5 for legal immigrants.

So if you are ever confronted by a gang of seedy looking individuals late at night, you better pray they are immigrants (legal OR illegal) and not native born Americans.

You are funny - 

Of the ones arrested - .09% are gang members.

How about you put forth a relevant stat?  Perhaps of the number of gang members arrested - how many are illegal?

[jakee 1,585]

35 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

How about you put forth a relevant stat?  Perhaps of the number of gang members arrested - how many are illegal?

You started us down this avenue, what do your stats say?

[billvon 3,096]

47 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

You are funny - 

Of the ones arrested - .09% are gang members.

How about you put forth a relevant stat?  Perhaps of the number of gang members arrested - how many are illegal?

OK.

During a recent crackdown, police arrested 1378 gang members across the US.  They also arrested 280 people at the same time for being illegal aliens.  Of them, 2/3 (184) were gang affiliated.  

So 13% of the gang members arrested were illegal aliens.  More than 66% of them were US citizens.

Next question?

http://time.com/4776820/ice-anti-gang-operation-arrests/

[DJL 235]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

That is true as you wrote it.  It seems that we do agree that a better relationship with the police would be beneficial - 

Its how we get to that point that we disagree.

 

And that kicks it back to giving local police the leeway to enforce according to their discretion.  Many interactions with police involve minor infractions for which a person is immediately released once they're either fined or found to not have been involved.  The next interaction is people going to the police to report a crime.  If you're really interested in stopping gang violence then these people need to be able to go to the police.  If Jose got cuffed for being in fight, got released pending adjudication and now he knows he'll get deported if a cop ever identifies him you've created someone who is both desperate and can't go to the police (and is now a perfect candidate for gang recruitment).  It's not Beaver-fuckin-Cleaver living in the hood who saw someone get shot or knows who did it.  That marginalized person is exactly who we need helping police.

Blind enforcement has never worked, just look at the history of black communities in America.

[turtlespeed 226]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

And that kicks it back to giving local police the leeway to enforce according to their discretion.  Many interactions with police involve minor infractions for which a person is immediately released once they're either fined or found to not have been involved.  The next interaction is people going to the police to report a crime.  If you're really interested in stopping gang violence then these people need to be able to go to the police.  If Jose got cuffed for being in fight, got released pending adjudication and now he knows he'll get deported if a cop ever identifies him you've created someone who is both desperate and can't go to the police (and is now a perfect candidate for gang recruitment).  It's not Beaver-fuckin-Cleaver living in the hood who saw someone get shot or knows who did it.  That marginalized person is exactly who we need helping police.

Blind enforcement has never worked, just look at the history of black communities in America.

There are already some laws that prevent persecution when calling in a crime or calling police for help.

.

[billvon 3,096]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

There are already some laws that prevent persecution when calling in a crime or calling police for help.

.

There were, yes, and they were even sometimes heeded.  Now they get deported.  So now people don't call for help, and don't volunteer any info to police.

[turtlespeed 226]

oops - Sounds like there are consequences.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/25/717187283/mass-judge-and-a-retired-court-officer-charged-with-helping-defendant-evade-ice

[DJL 235]

15 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

oops - Sounds like there are consequences.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/25/717187283/mass-judge-and-a-retired-court-officer-charged-with-helping-defendant-evade-ice

Agreed.  That's a different issue, they can't actually stop another law enforcement body from doing their work.