USA ‘Fall of an empire’

[nigel99 644]

Honestly I look at the childish behaviour and broken two party system in the USA and I think the US is little more than a banana republic with nukes.

The way the vast majority of Americans are unable to think beyond my party good, other party bad is sickening. It’s on both sides and it looks like a nation of sheep.

[Coreece 190]

I think that the same frustration or whatever emotion prompted you to write this post isn't much different and serves as the catalyst for a lot of this "childish behaviour."  After all, your post essentially boils down to  "my country good, your county bad," or that somehow "you're better than them.

But I agree that it is very sheep-like how many of us blindly follow various media outlets and political personalities that essentially keep us divided and prevent us from addressing various problems at a fundamental level.

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

15 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Honestly I look at the childish behaviour and broken two party system in the USA and I think the US is little more than a banana republic with nukes.

Hi Nigel,

While there is childish behavior on both sides, I do think that you will find more on the Republican side; both per capita & total numbers.  That is an observation.

This country survived the Civil War, we will survive The Age of Trump.  We just have to hang in there ( yea, Nancy Pelosi ) and move on.

Jerry Baumchen

[nigel99 644]

9 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Nigel,

While there is childish behavior on both sides, I do think that you will find more on the Republican side; both per capita & total numbers.  That is an observation.

This country survived the Civil War, we will survive The Age of Trump.  We just have to hang in there ( yea, Nancy Pelosi ) and move on.

Jerry Baumchen

Not sure what the answer is regarding democracy. Australia has compulsory voting but seems pretty broken, UK which is home to me isn’t any better, Zimbabwe where I was born is a joke.

But honestly the level of blindness I see both here and with US friends is amazing.

 

[DJL 235]

 

On 3/13/2019 at 9:33 PM, nigel99 said:

Honestly I look at the childish behaviour and broken two party system in the USA and I think the US is little more than a banana republic with nukes.

The way the vast majority of Americans are unable to think beyond my party good, other party bad is sickening. It’s on both sides and it looks like a nation of sheep.

The US is resting on its laurels as a post WWII superpower under the presumption that we will always be technologically and economically superior and if we aren't then somehow we will win a war to regain that position even though we went into it both technologically and economically inferior.

[airdvr 210]

I stopped watching the mainstream media a long time ago.  Definitely made me a happier person.  Not so sure about a better informed person.

The only way out of the current situation here is to regain control of the legislative branch.  As it is now, corporate money is making and passing laws that benefit only themselves and our Senators and Representatives are gorging themselves at the troff.  This legislation leans so far to the corporate interests that is has sparked a wave of calls for socialism.

[wmw999 2,600]

I'm largely in agreement with airdivr; whether or not it's possible to do anything about it is a good question. Because a lot of those lobbyists do, in fact, represent complex systems that congress needs help to understand (anybody would, except for maybe Billvon ). We don't want to pay for enough staffers to understand all that stuff (very large cost), but industry representatives are going to present the best light. They're salespeople, not analysts. But when it's our industry that has legislation pending, we for damn sure want that best light explained.

Congress just has to remember that they're salespeople, and that the financial and sucking-up advantages that come from getting on their good sides don't serve their constituents. 

Wendy P.

[gowlerk 2,283]

2 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Congress just has to remember that they're salespeople, and that the financial and sucking-up advantages that come from getting on their good sides don't serve their constituents. 

On the note of Media and Congress, Paul Ryan has just been appointed to the BoD of Fox Corp. A fine addition because of his extensive media and business experience? Well...no. He has been a professional politician or working for one nearly all his adult life. But I'm sure he brings a certain something to the table.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/19/media/paul-ryan-fox-corporation/index.html

[jakee 1,608]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

I'm largely in agreement with airdivr; whether or not it's possible to do anything about it is a good question. Because a lot of those lobbyists do, in fact, represent complex systems that congress needs help to understand (anybody would, except for maybe Billvon ). We don't want to pay for enough staffers to understand all that stuff (very large cost), but industry representatives are going to present the best light.

Someone reposted an article about that just a month or so ago. Apparently, starting in the late '90s Congress has gutted its in-house brains trust. Entire departments and research groups dissolved, surviving ones a fraction the size they used to be. Legislators have no choice but to listen to lobbyists because they no longer employ anyone impartial whose job it is to understand stuff. WaPo, "Why is Congress so Dumb".

 

And it's a false economy, because you inevitably end up making decisions which favour industry over the good of the country, and end up paying more to clean up the mess than you would avoiding the problem in the first place.

[nigel99 644]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

Someone reposted an article about that just a month or so ago. Apparently, starting in the late '90s Congress has gutted its in-house brains trust. Entire departments and research groups dissolved, surviving ones a fraction the size they used to be. Legislators have no choice but to listen to lobbyists because they no longer employ anyone impartial whose job it is to understand stuff. WaPo, "Why is Congress so Dumb".

 

And it's a false economy, because you inevitably end up making decisions which favour industry over the good of the country, and end up paying more to clean up the mess than you would avoiding the problem in the first place.

Interesting perspective and not something I’ve ever looked into. 

As a side and loosely related note I remember back home (UK) when the Iraq war was being discussed the Gov made the dossier publicly available. It was really interesting to observe what the media said (WMD an imminent threat), what the government chose to correct them on (not much), and how it differed from the facts in the dossier. It made me really question ‘listening’ to the news media and not going to the source of information to form my views. And that was the BBC, which is miles ahead of US media in terms of balance.

Has society become too complicated? Genuine question and not constrained to the USA

[jakee 1,608]

7 hours ago, nigel99 said:

As a side and loosely related note I remember back home (UK) when the Iraq war was being discussed the Gov made the dossier publicly available. It was really interesting to observe what the media said (WMD an imminent threat), what the government chose to correct them on (not much), and how it differed from the facts in the dossier. It made me really question ‘listening’ to the news media and not going to the source of information to form my views. And that was the BBC, which is miles ahead of US media in terms of balance.

I think you have a faulty memory. The Main Stream Media was reporting on the flaws in the Iraq Dossier almost immediately, Channel 4 News starting to call it the 'Dodgy Dossier' only 3 days after its release. 

 

 

[nigel99 644]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

I think you have a faulty memory. The Main Stream Media was reporting on the flaws in the Iraq Dossier almost immediately, Channel 4 News starting to call it the 'Dodgy Dossier' only 3 days after its release. 

 

 

At risk of major thread drift I recall the papers saying how Iraq could deploy WMD in 45 mins and implying that they were a threat to the UK. I honestly thought the whole dodgy dossier debate came after (Dr Kelly?) died

[gowlerk 2,283]

41 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

At risk of major thread drift I recall the papers saying how Iraq could deploy WMD in 45 mins and implying that they were a threat to the UK. I honestly thought the whole dodgy dossier debate came after (Dr Kelly?) died

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Dossier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier

 

Now back to the "Fall of an Empire". The USA does not have an empire in the classic sense. It makes sense that British people see one because there are some commonalities between US foreign policy and running an empire. And Brits see the world through their own history. But no American has ever puffed up their chest and declared that " the sun never sets on the American Empire".

Edited March 20, 2019 by gowlerk

[DJL 235]

23 hours ago, airdvr said:

The only way out of the current situation here is to regain control of the legislative branch.  As it is now, corporate money is making and passing laws that benefit only themselves and our Senators and Representatives are gorging themselves at the troff.  This legislation leans so far to the corporate interests that is has sparked a wave of calls for socialism.

Citizens United, it's as simple as that.  The government must represent the long term interest of people first and corporations second.  Disallowing corporations to be involved in campaign finance does not mean that their interests are not being met, they ARE because of the primary representation of citizens and the financial interests of those citizens.  Right now legislators cannot afford to pay attention to anyone but high dollar donors because campaign finance dollars have gone through the roof.  Take that money away and that special interest is diminished.

Edited March 20, 2019 by DJL

[DJL 235]

31 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Now back to the "Fall of an Empire". The USA does not have an empire in the classic sense. It makes sense that British people see one because there are some commonalities between US foreign policy and running an empire. And Brits see the world through their own history. But no American has ever puffed up their chest and declared that " the sun never sets on the American Empire".

We have the same mindset, think "Fortress Britannia" just before WWII as far as the "sun has never sets" concept.  That fortress was every so slowly whittled away and WWI was a knife to the gut.  What's going on right now with the "America First" drive is that we're walking away from UN and NATO allies and overall lessening our economic and military involvement in worldwide national interests.  At the onset of WWII the US was a sleeping bear, as the Japanese put it but without strong economic and diplomatic relationships around the world we could very much lose our grip to the interests of China, Japan and their hegemony of developing trade partners.

[kallend 2,174]

23 hours ago, airdvr said:

 

The only way out of the current situation here is to regain control of the legislative branch.  As it is now, corporate money is making and passing laws that benefit only themselves and our Senators and Representatives are gorging themselves at the troff. 

And the current Administrative Branch isn't enriching itself?  (The head of which, I remind you, received FEWER votes than his opponent).

[gowlerk 2,283]

15 minutes ago, DJL said:

We have the same mindset,

Yes, in many ways Americans think of their country as first in the world. But they do not send Americans to their possessions to be Governors, nor do they collect Tribute. The world has moved beyond the ability of stronger nations to exert the level of control the defines Imperialism and Empire. The modern world involves coalitions of shared interests shared enemies, and trade. Nations no longer have empires. That does not mean that they don't use their power to attempt to control others. In my definition Russia  was the last entity that had an empire through controlling the USSR. Albeit  a short lived one. Their leader is still upset about the fact that they were too weak to hold it.

[jakee 1,608]

2 hours ago, nigel99 said:

At risk of major thread drift I recall the papers saying how Iraq could deploy WMD in 45 mins and implying that they were a threat to the UK. I honestly thought the whole dodgy dossier debate came after (Dr Kelly?) died

Some of the opera certainly did - but the September dossier did claim that Iraq could hit the UK with WMD in 45 minutes, and it would be irresponsible of the media not to report what the government was claiming. However, the main stream media also took a leading role, at the time while the debate was happening, in exposing the uestionable parts of the dossiers.

 

Thinking that you are now somehow better informed on a subject because you ignore what the newspapers or the BBC says about any subject is pure self deception.

[airdvr 210]

5 hours ago, kallend said:

And the current Administrative Branch isn't enriching itself?  (The head of which, I remind you, received FEWER votes than his opponent).

For the purposes of this discussion I'm aiming directly at congress.  If you think Billary didn't enrich themselves....

[billvon 3,131]

7 minutes ago, airdvr said:

For the purposes of this discussion I'm aiming directly at congress.  If you think Billary didn't enrich themselves....

Whataboutism noted.