another faker exposed and charged

[Coreece 190]

16 minutes ago, DJL said:

The national reaction is exactly what should've happened both for the initial reported attack and for the fallout over him faking it.

I agree.

 

16 minutes ago, DJL said:

I've asked this before but why is it that the spectrum of right leaning to far right Republicans are so defensive about this situation?

I would guess because there are elements of truth to it, but they don't feel that that type of hatred represents how they really feel and who they are as a whole.

It's the same reason people get defensive about illegal immigrants that kill people, or Mexican sex-traffickers crossing unsecured border points.  There is truth to it, but it doesn't represent the whole of the situation.

[billvon 3,109]

Just now, Coreece said:

I would guess because there are elements of truth to it, but they don't feel that that type of hatred represents how they really feel and who they are as a whole.

Agreed.  If both sides could start seeing that, we wouldn't see the sort of extremist violence and partisan anger we are seeing today.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

6 hours ago, DJL said:

A leading gay black actor found in an apparent racially motivated attempt at lynching is quite relevant to the national pulse.  This would still be newsworthy if it were a white actor, straight actor, it would be newsworthy if it were David Duke.  In the case of Jacob Wohl's accusations what was more relevant is how obviously phony and contrived it was from the get go.  The only newsworthy aspect of it was the question whether he was really going to try to validate such an easily disprovable accusation against one of the highest positioned lawyers in the country.

I've asked this before but why is it that the spectrum of right leaning to far right Republicans are so defensive about this situation?  The national reaction is exactly what should've happened both for the initial reported attack and for the fallout over him faking it.

Because they don't want to believe that the purported attack on Smollet is 'quite relevant'.
They want to pretend that those sorts of attacks don't happen and never did happen. 

[Coreece 190]

28 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

7 hours ago, DJL said:

I've asked this before but why is it that the spectrum of right leaning to far right Republicans are so defensive about this situation?  The national reaction is exactly what should've happened both for the initial reported attack and for the fallout over him faking it.

Because they don't want to believe that the purported attack on Smollet is 'quite relevant'.
They want to pretend that those sorts of attacks don't happen and never did happen. 

Perhaps.  I suppose there are different reasons and/or levels of denial/defensiveness.

The left tends to exploit news of hatred like this to further their political agenda, and the right exploits news of sex-trafficking rings and violent illegals to further their political agenda, so people get defensive.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Except that the reports of attacks based on hatred are usually real.

 

The reports of sex trafficking rings and violent illegals are usually exaggerated far beyond reality.

[Coreece 190]

26 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Except that the reports of attacks based on hatred are usually real.

The reports of sex trafficking rings and violent illegals are usually exaggerated far beyond reality. 

This is the type of bias/denial/defensiveness we're talking about.

Thanks for the example.

[DJL 235]

12 hours ago, Coreece said:

Replying to: "

Except that the reports of attacks based on hatred are usually real.

The reports of sex trafficking rings and violent illegals are usually exaggerated far beyond reality. "

This is the type of bias/denial/defensiveness we're talking about.

Thanks for the example.

There are better examples on your behalf, like the kids at the Lincoln Memorial when everyone lost their shit.  That particular claim is being used as the reasoning for building the border wall when we know very well that there's only a small fraction happening at the non-wall locations.  It's a valid statement that "the left" uses these incidents to exemplify the current trend back towards institutional racism and blames Trump for them.  It doesn't help the conversation to make everything about "because Trump".

Edited March 15, 2019 by DJL

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Well, it's really easy to blame Trump for much of this. 

He didn't cause it, but he sure took advantage of it.
He's a very good con man. He sees an opportunity and seizes it.

 

He saw all the simmering prejudice and bigotry that was brought to the surface by Obama's presidency. He even jumped on the 'birther' bandwagon. I'm still waiting for that 'very big' revelation that he promised...

Back in 2012. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9629646/Donald-Trump-to-deliver-very-big-Obama-revelation.html

 

The entire "Make America Hate Again" campaign was tuned to that crowd. And it was quite successful.

Look at the Trumpettes on here. They swallow all the lies and repeat them back (No collusion!!!! is the biggest). 

 

They then use garbage like 'botherism' and the false equivalence above to justify their hate. 

 

The incident at the Lincoln Memorial is a good example. While the kids weren't entirely to blame, the fact that they were wearing MAGA hats, standing around people with brown skin (whom they greatly outnumbered)and shouting "BUILD THE WALL!!!!" seems to be forgotten. 

[Coreece 190]

28 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

They then use garbage like 'botherism' and the false equivalence above to justify their hate. 

What is botherism, and what false equivalence are you talking about?

 

28 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The incident at the Lincoln Memorial is a good example. While the kids weren't entirely to blame, the fact that they were wearing MAGA hats, standing around people with brown skin (whom they greatly outnumbered)and shouting "BUILD THE WALL!!!!" seems to be forgotten. 

Continuing to push this false narrative is unnecessarily desperate and rather lame.

[billvon 3,109]

35 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Continuing to push this false narrative is unnecessarily desperate and rather lame.

Are you claiming they weren't wearing MAGA hats and shouting "build the wall!" at minorities?

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Continuing to push this false narrative is unnecessarily desperate and rather lame.

Are you claiming they weren't wearing MAGA hats

Ok, so we have about 5, maybe 6 kids wearing MAGA hats out of a group of at least 40 in this picture as they wait for their bus by the Lincoln memorial where there were brown people.  What is the world coming to!

 

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Are you claiming they weren't. . . shouting "build the wall!" at minorities?

Honestly, I didn't hear it in any of the videos that I saw of this incident.  Is it out of the realm of possibility?  No, of course not, and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple ignorant students actually did mutter it at some point, but I wouldn't say that it defines the situation, nor is it representative of the groups behavior as a whole, especially when given more context.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Coreece

[billvon 3,109]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

Ok, so we have about 5, maybe 6 kids wearing MAGA hats out of a group of at least 40 in this picture

Honestly, I didn't hear it in any of the videos that I saw of this incident.  Is it out of the realm of possibility?  No, of course not, and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple ignorant students actually did mutter it at some point, but I wouldn't say that it defines the situation, nor is it representative of the groups behavior as a whole, especially when given more context.

Yep.  And other pictures, showing other angles, showed a lot more.
 

Quote

Honestly, I didn't hear it in any of the videos that I saw of this incident.  . . Is it out of the realm of possibility?  No, of course not

Agreed.  The chants happened before any of the videos started.  Two witnesses, one a Vietnam vet, confirmed it.

So in other words, it's not a false narrative.

Quote

I wouldn't say that it defines the situation, nor is it representative of the groups behavior as a whole, especially when given more context.

No one claimed that it did.  They claimed that the incident at the Lincoln Memorial - which included the kids wearing MAGA hats and chanting, not all Republicans or everyone within 200 meters of the Lincoln Memorial - was a good example of Trump supporters using hate to further divide America.

And that is a very real narrative - as Heather Heyer's family can attest to.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

What is botherism, and what false equivalence are you talking about?

 

Continuing to push this false narrative is unnecessarily desperate and rather lame.

Sorry, I meant "Both-siderism", the idea that 'both sides are equally responsible' in a given situation. One of the most glaring examples is the KKK rally in Charlottesville, where Trump said that 'there are fine people on both sides' (or words to that effect). 

 

What 'false narrative? The kids were wearing MAGA hats. The kids were shouting 'Build the Wall!!" at people with brown skin. Pretending this didn't happen is pretty common among Trumpettes. They only believe what they want to.

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Ok, so we have about 5, maybe 6 kids wearing MAGA hats out of a group of at least 40 in this picture

Honestly, I didn't hear it in any of the videos that I saw of this incident.  Is it out of the realm of possibility?  No, of course not, and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple ignorant students actually did mutter it at some point, but I wouldn't say that it defines the situation, nor is it representative of the groups behavior as a whole, especially when given more context.

Yep.  And other pictures, showing other angles, showed a lot more.

Then show me, because I can't find any.

The infamous angle that made TV showed 3 of those same 5 hats in a much smaller frame, so maybe you just perceived it that way without any further consideration.

 

1 hour ago, billvon said:

  The chants happened before any of the videos started.

Oh, how convenient. 

 

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Two witnesses, one a Vietnam vet, confirmed it.

 Who?

So you have no video and two questionable witnesses out of all the people involved and this is the main narrative?  And then you compare these kids to a white nationalist that murdered someone?

Ya, like I said - lame and unnecessarily desperate.

 

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

What 'false narrative? The kids were wearing MAGA hats. The kids were shouting 'Build the Wall!!" at people with brown skin. Pretending this didn't happen is pretty common among Trumpettes. They only believe what they want to. 

Well that's probably because there is no video of them chanting "Build the Wall!" as billvon already acknowledged.

However we do have video of the kids standing up for gays against the homophobic slurs of black nationalists and how Nick Sandmann and his classmate showed self control in diffusing the situation, which is hardly inline with the "white nationalist murderer" narrative that bills trying to compare it to.  So maybe it's you guys that "only believe what they want to."

Edited March 15, 2019 by Coreece

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

How many hats & sweatshirts can you count in this one?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-phillips.html

Note that there are red MAGA caps, white MAGA caps, and red, white and blue stocking hats with the MAGA phrase on them. There are also blue "Trump 2020" hats. 

[billvon 3,109]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Then show me, because I can't find any.

You can't just use the clips from FOX News.

Quote

two questionable witnesses

So you just admitted that you don't have any proof for your claim that there were "5, maybe 6" hats - and we should now believe you over eyewitnesses because you think they are "questionable?"

You are losing pretty badly on this one.  The school has already apologized, and every one except for diehard Trump supporters have chalked it up to "lessons learned."  Time for Trump supporters to do the same.

Quote

And then you compare these kids to a white nationalist that murdered someone?

I didn't.  I was talking about the NARRATIVE  - not the KIDS.  And I think you know that.

When you have to do this sort of nonsense to make your point, it's probably not a very strong point to begin with.  You are usually better than this.

[DJL 235]

I think this point right here sums up accurately the ridiculousness leading up to the news making moments of this interation:

 

[cjwilt 8]

This is the video put out by the kids law firm refuting all the media lies.

 

Nathan Phillips is a know repeat liar.

 

 

[Coreece 190]

6 hours ago, billvon said:

you just admitted that you don't have any proof for your claim that there were "5, maybe 6" hats

I showed you an image where I counted 5-6 red MAGA hats, lol.  Wolfriver then made a good observation that there are also kids wearing white MAGA hats and multicolored MAGA stocking caps.  So that brings the tally up to about 10 MAGA hats out of 40 heads in the original image that I showed you, so about 25%.  I'd say that's a pretty fair estimate for other angles in your video as well.  But maybe you think it's 35%, or 40%.  Hell let's go 50% if that makes you feel better.

Call the fashion police!

6 hours ago, billvon said:

and we should now believe you over eyewitnesses because you think they are "questionable?"

 You said there were only two witnesses out of all those people, but didn't name any, why is that?  What Vietnam vet?

The video does not indicate that this group of kids had a hateful mindset, in fact, on several occasions it showed quite the opposite.

 

6 hours ago, billvon said:

You are losing pretty badly on this one.  The school has already apologized

Right, but that was before the truth came out and before the media apologized for jumping the gun and getting it wrong.  The Covington Bishop also apologized to the students for prematurely condemning them.

 

6 hours ago, billvon said:

every one except for diehard Trump supporters have chalked it up to "lessons learned." 

Right, take caution when wearing MAGA hats on school trips to Washington D.C where there might be angry minorities, because superficial morons will jump the gun and falsely judge you solely based on what you wear and what you look like.

 

6 hours ago, billvon said:

Quote

And then you compare these kids to a white nationalist that murdered someone?

I didn't.  I was talking about the NARRATIVE  - not the KIDS.  And I think you know that.

You said   "the incident at the Lincoln Memorial - which included the kids wearing MAGA hats and chanting that was a good example of Trump supporters using hate to further divide America.  And that is a very real narrative - as Heather Heyer's family can attest to."

You didn't provide evidence of any hate, just a bunch of teenage boys jumping up and down with MAGA hats.  How does that even remotely apply to the Charlottesville narrative, and why did you even bring it up if you weren't trying to compare the two?

 

6 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

How many hats & sweatshirts can you count in this one?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-phillips.html

Note that there are red MAGA caps, white MAGA caps, and red, white and blue stocking hats with the MAGA phrase on them. There are also blue "Trump 2020" hats. 

If you had them chanting, "build that wall, build that wall," then you would've satisfied the burden of having to support your claims. But you didn't, so all you really have is "OMG, They're wearing MAGA hats!"

It wasn't perfect, but the kids should be applauded for how they handled themselves in the midst of such hatred directed at them.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Coreece

[billvon 3,109]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Right, take caution when wearing MAGA hats on school trips to Washington D.C where there might be angry minorities, because superficial morons will jump the gun and falsely judge you solely based on what you wear and what you look like.

 More like - if you are wearing MAGA hats and are intent on attacking native Americans, make sure there are no cameras nearby.

These are typical teenagers.  It is not surprising that some are dicks.  It's sort of a prerequisite for being a teenager.  What is unfortunate, for them, is that they had the bad judgment to go after a Native American.  Fortunately the more mature people involved have apologized.  Too bad more people aren't as mature.

Quote

You said   "the incident at the Lincoln Memorial - which included the kids wearing MAGA hats and chanting that was a good example of Trump supporters using hate to further divide America.  And that is a very real narrative - as Heather Heyer's family can attest to."

Yes.  That narrative is that immigrants are criminals, that they are rapists and drug dealers.  That they are MS-13.  That they will come to the US and kill you and rape your daughters and implement Sharia Law and take all your taxpayer money.  That they are so dangerous we need the military to put them down.  That white supremacists are "fine people" who are unjustly stigmatized.

Narratives have consequences.  Those consequences may be as minor as a bunch of dick teens harassing a Native American, or Trump attacking a Gold Star family.  They may be more serious, like the resurgence of white supremacy and Naziism.  And those narratives may even result in the death of a protester in the US, or the slaughter of dozens in New Zealand.

That is a result of the NARRATIVE.  Not the KIDS.  Can you see the difference now?

Quote

You didn't provide evidence of any hate, just a bunch of teenage boys jumping up and down with MAGA hats.  

And yelling at a Native American.

Quote

If you had them chanting, "build that wall, build that wall," then you would've satisfied the burden of having to support your claims.

On the one hand I have two eyewitnesses. On the other hand I have you - a right winger on the Internet who claims he knows better than them.

Were you there?  If not, I will go with the eyewitnesses.  You would, too - if you didn't have a desperate need to "win" an argument for your side.

Quote

It wasn't perfect, but the kids should be applauded for how they handled themselves in the midst of such hatred directed at them.

Yes.  Their school apologized.  Good for them; there is hope for America.

[Coreece 190]

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Yes.  That narrative is that immigrants are criminals, that they are rapists and drug dealers.  That they are MS-13.  That they will come to the US and kill you and rape your daughters and implement Sharia Law and take all your taxpayer money.  That they are so dangerous we need the military to put them down.  That white supremacists are "fine people" who are unjustly stigmatized. 

Narratives have consequences. 

Yes, and as unfortunate as that is, it has nothing to do with these kids and the reason why they were at the Lincoln memorial to begin with.  So again, why are you so desperate to draw that connection? 

 

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Those consequences may be as minor as a bunch of dick teens harassing a Native American

. . . attacking native Americans.

. . .bad judgment to go after a Native American. 

You posted a video called  "what actually happened," did you even bother to watch it?  Because all you're doing is regurgitating the same false narrative from 2 months ago that the media has since walked back once they saw "what actually happened."

 

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Quote

If you had them chanting, "build that wall, build that wall," then you would've satisfied the burden of having to support your claims.

On the one hand I have two eyewitnesses. On the other hand I have you - a right winger on the Internet who claims he knows better than them. 

Or you can just admit that there is video evidence that generally trumps any contradictory statements made by only two  witnesses out of 100-200+ people that even you are reluctant to identify by name. 

And BTW, it appears you may have lost your "Vietnam Vet" witness.  Tough break, eh?

 

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Were you there? 

No, but we have actual video which is the next best thing, and unfortunately for you it does not corroborate your "witnesses'" statement.

 

8 hours ago, billvon said:

If not, I will go with the eyewitnesses.  You would, too

I'd tend to rely more on objective video evidence, and you would too if you weren't so hellbent on sticking it to a "bunch of dick teens" whose sociopolitical ideology is different than yours.  Let's face it, these kids represent a new generation of religious pro-lifers, and whether or not they actually support Trump, they more than likely support his stance on abortion, and you can't fucking stand it, which is why you feel such a desperate need to  portray this as negatively as you possibly can't and continue to ignore anything that runs contrary to your false narrative.

 

8 hours ago, billvon said:

You would, too - if you didn't have a desperate need to "win" an argument for your side. 

Honestly Bill, I think you might be projecting, and I'll tell you why.

If it was a group of white nationalists and real Vietnam vets that were hurling insults to a diverse group of somewhat typically obnoxius kids that didn't display a specific sociopolitical identity that you disagreed with, and telling them all to "go back to where they came from,"  I'd still be defending the kids, and you'd probably agree with me instead of suggesting that they show some maturity and apologize to the white supremacists.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Coreece

[Rick 67]

On 3/15/2019 at 11:46 PM, billvon said:

 More like - if you are wearing MAGA hats and are intent on attacking native Americans, make sure there are no cameras nearby.

These are typical teenagers.  It is not surprising that some are dicks.  It's sort of a prerequisite for being a teenager.  What is unfortunate, for them, is that they had the bad judgment to go after a Native American.  Fortunately the more mature people involved have apologized.  Too bad more people aren't as mature.

Yes.  That narrative is that immigrants are criminals, that they are rapists and drug dealers.  That they are MS-13.  That they will come to the US and kill you and rape your daughters and implement Sharia Law and take all your taxpayer money.  That they are so dangerous we need the military to put them down.  That white supremacists are "fine people" who are unjustly stigmatized.

Narratives have consequences.  Those consequences may be as minor as a bunch of dick teens harassing a Native American, or Trump attacking a Gold Star family.  They may be more serious, like the resurgence of white supremacy and Naziism.  And those narratives may even result in the death of a protester in the US, or the slaughter of dozens in New Zealand.

That is a result of the NARRATIVE.  Not the KIDS.  Can you see the difference now?

And yelling at a Native American.

On the one hand I have two eyewitnesses. On the other hand I have you - a right winger on the Internet who claims he knows better than them.

Were you there?  If not, I will go with the eyewitnesses.  You would, too - if you didn't have a desperate need to "win" an argument for your side.

Yes.  Their school apologized.  Good for them; there is hope for America.

I don't know how you can watch that video and still stand by your narrative that the kids were "going after a native American". 

[BillyVance 35]

3 minutes ago, Rick said:

I don't know how you can watch that video and still stand by your narrative that the kids were "going after a native American". 

Yeah because they weren't. The fake Vietnam veteran American Indian and his cohorts approached the kids. Nick Sandmann didn't know how to react but stand there.

[billvon 3,109]

54 minutes ago, BillyVance said:

Yeah because they weren't. The fake Vietnam veteran American Indian and his cohorts approached the kids. Nick Sandmann didn't know how to react but stand there.

Right.  He "didn't know how to react."  Which is why he stood there grinning.

Funny - the school has already apologized for this.  They've moved on, as have most people.  It is sad that some can't - that they have such a need for outrage that they can't let it go.

[Coreece 190]

12 minutes ago, billvon said:

Funny - the school has already apologized for this.

Right because they were pressured into doing so given the initial report by the media.  Since then, the media has walked back their claims, and the Covington diocese apologized for prematurely condemning the students.

 

12 minutes ago, billvon said:

They've moved on, as have most people.  It is sad that some can't - that they have such a need for outrage that they can't let it go. 

Right, I thought this was settled, but if go back through this thread, you'll see that it was wolfriverjoe that couldn't "let it go."

Edited March 18, 2019 by Coreece