The wall

[SkyDekker 1,465]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

A lot of these are children being dragged across the border.

Wouldn't surprise me. With the amount of alleged sexual assaults taking place on these minors, a steady stream is required.

 

yes that is tagged /s

[Coreece 190]

23 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

A lot of these are children being dragged across the border.

Wouldn't surprise me. With the amount of alleged sexual assaults taking place on these minors, a steady stream is required.

I didn't take his comment to mean that they were being trafficked.  But even if it did, then the wall wouldn't really be dealing with the actual emergency, but rather, avoiding it.  So I don't see how he gets off with using the whole "what about the children" thing to support his case.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Coreece

[DJL 235]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Dan Crenshaw Fox and Friends, lol:

"This vote was effectively about whether or not this is an emergency.  That essentially was the question being asked during the vote.  Ok, I was just down at the border the last couple weeks.  Uh, it's definitely an emergency.  When I was there, there was at least a thousand apprehensions in ONE DAY!  A lot of these are children being dragged across the border.  That absolutely constitutes a crisis and an emergency."

I'm going to start watching that show more often, it's hilarious.

I would like to see validation as to what he saw on this visit.

[BIGUN 1,483]

21 hours ago, Coreece said:

So I don't see how he gets off with using the whole "what about the children" thing to support his case.

It's been going on for awhile.

 

[Coreece 190]

22 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

21 hours ago, Coreece said:

So I don't see how he gets off with using the whole "what about the children" thing to support his case.

It's been going on for awhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eicrqW8-ZI0

 

It's really not the same thing tho.  The emergency funds in your video were to be used to help refugees/children directly.

However Crenshaw is basically saying "what about the children?"  Ok, what about the children? Do we just use the funds to build a wall and let the same problems pile up on the other side?  Out of site, out of mind?  How is that helping the children?

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the need for deterrence.  It's like Obama said, those people need to know that their children will be sent back or may not even make it to the US.  Maybe a wall would be a deterrent, but I'm not so sure.  Is it really worth a multi-biliion dollar social experiment to find out it's effectiveness, or lack thereof?

It's starting to seem that this wall is more symbolic than practical.  Is this the type of symbolism we want attached to this country for decades and maybe even centuries to come?

 

[billvon 3,111]

Lest people think that political activism never works, here's a great example of it working in Texas - 15 babies freed from detention.

===========================

ICE Releases 15 Babies Detained With Mothers Seeking Asylum

Mar 4, 2019, 5:25pm Renée Feltz

One advocate said she was concerned that ICE would not have responded without a team of advocates "on the ground in Dilley."

•  

 

Five days after alerting officials about an alarming number of infants under the age of 1 at the South Texas Family Residential Center in Dilley, Texas, a coalition of immigrant rights advocates say 15 out of the 17 babies have been released with their mothers.

“We remain alarmed that the government has demonstrated a willingness to detain such vulnerable individuals as a 5-month-old,” Kathryn Shepherd, national advocacy counsel for the Immigration Justice Campaign, told Rewire.News Monday afternoon. “I think it reflects total disregard for human life.”

Shepherd said she was concerned that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) would not have responded without a team of advocates “on the ground in Dilley.”

[nigel99 616]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Lest people think that political activism never works, here's a great example of it working in Texas - 15 babies freed from detention.

===========================

ICE Releases 15 Babies Detained With Mothers Seeking Asylum

Mar 4, 2019, 5:25pm Renée Feltz

One advocate said she was concerned that ICE would not have responded without a team of advocates "on the ground in Dilley."

•  

 

Five days after alerting officials about an alarming number of infants under the age of 1 at the South Texas Family Residential Center in Dilley, Texas, a coalition of immigrant rights advocates say 15 out of the 17 babies have been released with their mothers.

“We remain alarmed that the government has demonstrated a willingness to detain such vulnerable individuals as a 5-month-old,” Kathryn Shepherd, national advocacy counsel for the Immigration Justice Campaign, told Rewire.News Monday afternoon. “I think it reflects total disregard for human life.”

Shepherd said she was concerned that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) would not have responded without a team of advocates “on the ground in Dilley.”

I have really mixed feelings about illegal immigration. There are really three main groups of migrant that I can think of.

1) Legal migrants 

2) Refugees

3) illegal immigrants 

I realise that a refugee escaping violence and instability is likely to use the same or similar methods to an illegal immigrant and so it can get very blurry.

But over all I think a tough stance on illegal immigrants is warranted. Yes it sucks that the birth lottery put you on the wrong side of a border and no opportunity doesn’t exist for many and yes they desperately want a better life. I believe migrants generally make excellent workers and I also don’t believe migrants come looking for handouts. So while I struggle with the human element and empathy and compassion, at some point the rule of law needs to be upheld. 

I’m not sure about other countries, but something I like about the USA is the Green card lottery which I believe is free. It gives something like 50 000 people a year a chance to live in the USA, it is weighted towards 3rd world countries. 

 

[gowlerk 2,274]

38 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

something I like about the USA is the Green card lottery which I believe is free. It gives something like 50 000 people a year a chance to live in the USA, it is weighted towards 3rd world countries. 

That is just the sort of thing the Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, Trumpists are working to stop. Those are undesirables that lead to chain migration from "shithole countries". That's not going to MAGA.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

43 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

 

I’m not sure about other countries, but something I like about the USA is the Green card lottery which I believe is free. It gives something like 50 000 people a year a chance to live in the USA, it is weighted towards 3rd world countries. 

 

That is not available to Mexican or Central American immigrants. 

Their only option is to show up and ask for asylum.
Considering how badly US interference has messed up many Central & South American countries, it's a valid request, IMO.

 

And that's what these people are doing. They are then treated like criminals, with 5 month old kids essentially being put in jail. Trump has publicly stated he is treating them badly to discourage others from trying to get asylum.

It's not that they are criminals, or that they are trying to enter the country illegally (despite what the Trumpettes want to believe). It's that they have brown skin and Trump and his followers hate them.

[billvon 3,111]

52 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

But over all I think a tough stance on illegal immigrants is warranted. Yes it sucks that the birth lottery put you on the wrong side of a border and no opportunity doesn’t exist for many and yes they desperately want a better life. I believe migrants generally make excellent workers and I also don’t believe migrants come looking for handouts. So while I struggle with the human element and empathy and compassion, at some point the rule of law needs to be upheld.

I agree with all that.  Anyone who wants to come should come legally.  But right now refugees ARE coming legally - and they are being separated from their families and thrown in cages, in an attempt to scare away other refugees, who are portrayed as evil criminals bent on the destruction of the US.

[billvon 3,111]

Another poll is out on the wall.  He is clearly ignoring the will of the people with his actions.

=====================

March 6, 2019 - U.S. Voters Oppose Trump Emergency Powers On Wall 2-1. Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds

American voters disapprove 66 - 31 percent of President Donald Trump using emergency executive powers to fund a wall on the border with Mexico, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today. 

Republicans back President Trump's use of emergency powers for the wall 69 - 29 percent, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University National Poll finds. Every other listed party, gender, education, age and racial group disapproves of this action. 

====================

[kallend 2,146]

Gen. Kelly speaks out on "the Wall" being a waste of money.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/07/john-kelly-border-wall-1209344

 

[billvon 3,111]

From the LA Times:

=======

The commandant of the Marines has warned the Pentagon that deployments to the southwest border and funding transfers under the president's emergency declaration, among other unexpected demands, have posed “unacceptable risk to Marine Corps combat readiness and solvency.”

In two internal memos, Marine Corps Gen. Robert Neller said the “unplanned/unbudgeted” deployment along the border that President Trump ordered last fall, and shifts of other funds to support border security, had forced him to cancel or reduce planned military training in at least five countries, and delay urgent repairs at bases.

=======

Why does Trump hate the military?

[kallend 2,146]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

From the LA Times:

=======

The commandant of the Marines has warned the Pentagon that deployments to the southwest border and funding transfers under the president's emergency declaration, among other unexpected demands, have posed “unacceptable risk to Marine Corps combat readiness and solvency.”

In two internal memos, Marine Corps Gen. Robert Neller said the “unplanned/unbudgeted” deployment along the border that President Trump ordered last fall, and shifts of other funds to support border security, had forced him to cancel or reduce planned military training in at least five countries, and delay urgent repairs at bases.

=======

Why does Trump hate the military?

Meh.  He's only a general, and Trump knows more about military matters than generals and admirals.  He told us.

[BillyVance 35]

I was on vacation in Las Vegas with my wife the last 4 days and am just getting caught up with the news.

Looks like Trump is having a YUGE week. Mueller Report gets delivered to AG Barr, Barr's summary says no collusion.

Then there was a vote yesterday in the House... To override Trump's veto of the national emergency cancellation.... which predictably, FAILED. And it wasn't even close.

Trump keeps winning. #MAGA

[BIGUN 1,483]

I feel the need to resurface this; in light of knowing that it will get trashed. A couple of years ago; a thirty-five year friend's wife was killed by an illegal alien. He was caught and sentenced to six years in jail (hit, kill & run). After six months; he was let out of prison (without the knowledge of my friend to get an injunction); returned to Honduras only to found and arrested again in California for robbery.  So, yes. The issue is kind of personal. 

Three years ago, Kate Steinle was murdered by an illegal alien who was released from jail despite a request from federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to turn him over. A federal appeals court ruled last month that Steinle's parents cannot sue over San Francisco's "sanctuary" policy that allowed her killer to avoid deportation and walk free.  

The following is just in Texas ALONE:

Quote

 

According to DHS status indicators, over 286,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and March 31, 2019, of which over 194,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS.

Over the course of their entire Texas criminal careers, these 194,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 476,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 1,032 homicide charges; 53,504 assault charges; 15,146 burglary charges; 61,393 drug charges; 718 kidnapping charges; 29,352 theft charges; 41,822 obstructing police charges; 3,579 robbery charges; 5,738 sexual assault charges; 7,008 sexual offense charges; and 6,891 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 219,000 convictions including 478 homicide convictions; 23,197 assault convictions; 7,860 burglary convictions; 31,728 drug convictions; 290 kidnapping convictions; 13,871 theft convictions; 21,071 obstructing police convictions; 1,971 robbery convictions; 3,021 sexual assault convictions; 3,762 sexual offense convictions; and 3,080 weapon convictions.

https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txcriminalalienstatistics.htm

 

Quite frankly, I just do not understand my liberal fellow skydivers on here. I simply don't get how you guys can be so heels dug in about letting illegal aliens in the country. I'm beginning to think that it may be a case of, "It hasn't hit close to home for you." It has for me and I just want you guys to know that I will continue to support Trump as long as he continues to either 1) build a way, 2) use the military, or 3) we can come up with some bipartisan way to secure our borders. I don't know if that means via manpower + drones + + +

[kallend 2,146]

STRAWMAN. The issue is that the wall is a stupidly expensive and ineffective way to address the problem. You don't have to be a liberal to see that. 

[billvon 3,111]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I feel the need to resurface this; in light of knowing that it will get trashed. A couple of years ago; a thirty-five year friend's wife was killed by an illegal alien. He was caught and sentenced to six years in jail (hit, kill & run). After six months; he was let out of prison (without the knowledge of my friend to get an injunction); returned to Honduras only to found and arrested again in California for robbery.  So, yes. The issue is kind of personal. 

I can see how it would be personal - and I could also see how it would be very hard for you to understand that US citizens pose a bigger risk in terms of murdering you and your friends than illegal aliens do.

But it's important to base decisions on actual data rather than personal feelings.  It is fortunate for us that most people do that; if not, skydiving would have been banned long ago after someone's beloved daughter was killed in a tandem accident.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

 

Quite frankly, I just do not understand my liberal fellow skydivers on here. I simply don't get how you guys can be so heels dug in about letting illegal aliens in the country. I'm beginning to think that it may be a case of, "It hasn't hit close to home for you." It has for me and I just want you guys to know that I will continue to support Trump as long as he continues to either 1) build a way, 2) use the military, or 3) we can come up with some bipartisan way to secure our borders. I don't know if that means via manpower + drones + + +

I don't consider myself a 'liberal', although my views on some subjects lean that way.

I have never advocated allowing illegal aliens into the country. 

I have advocated allowing more people to enter the country legally. The problem is that there is virtually ZERO avenue for the average Mexican or Central American person to enter the country legally without claiming asylum. And for many of them, trekking to the border and trying that is their only choice. Not just their only choice to enter the US, but their only choice to survive.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that those 'Caravan' people are NOT trying to enter illegally. They are presenting themselves at the border and requesting refugee status. 
So any sort of 'wall' or 'military intervention' would have NO EFFECT on them. None.

And in case you haven't noticed, Trump has done nothing to actually build a wall. He's made lots of claims (all false) and promises, but has done nothing. He had 2 years of R control of both houses. Why is it an emergency NOW??? What has changed?

Oh, yeah. The Ds took control of the House and he wants to make them look bad. 

And the fools he's conned so far are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,466]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

 

Hi Keith,

Re: 'my liberal fellow skydivers on here'

While you may consider me a liberal; I do not consider myself so.  I am somewhat liberal on social issues & quite conservative on fiscal matters.

Re:  'I simply don't get how you guys can be so heels dug in about letting illegal aliens in the country.'

I, for one, do not advocate this.  I do have compassion for the 'dreamers' as it was not their choice to come or not.

I think that the wall is just a way for Trump to rally his troops.

I am all for budgeting far more money for border security; but, not any 'wall' that will never do the job.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  IMO Trump just looks for 'trouble' because he likes to see his name in the headlines.  Do not forget, his first attempt at running for Pres he was a D.  He is an opportunist, nothing more.

[BIGUN 1,483]

28 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I do have compassion for the 'dreamers' as it was not their choice to come or not.

I think that the wall is just a way for Trump to rally his troops.

I am all for budgeting far more money for border security; but, not any 'wall' that will never do the job.

We're in agreement, Jerry. 

[BIGUN 1,483]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

I could also see how it would be very hard for you to understand that US citizens pose a bigger risk in terms of murdering you and your friends than illegal aliens do.

Quote

... most immigrants live within the law is neither disputable nor enlightening. Most native-born Americans aren't criminals either. But though we cannot deport or keep out citizens, we can apply the principle of exclusion to immigrants. It is a matter of public safety that immigrants with a history of felony arrests and convictions in their native countries are kept out of the U.S., and those who commit crimes here are removed and kept outside our borders. It is a triumph of hope over experience to imagine that a career criminal will exhibit a capacity for self-reform if coaxed to try harder. The criminal does not view human relations through the same prism that non-criminals do. The gangster who runs credit-card and cigarette tax scams, the mob enforcer, the wife beater who invokes "tradition" and uses his spouse's immigrant status to keep her in line for them, crime is a vehicle to exalt an inflated sense of infallibility. They are predators, and most people instinctively avoid challenging them because they do not want to be prey. Predators do not change without intensive therapy, and even then the odds are against it.⁸⁴ The United States can ill afford to serve as the world's crime control and rehabilitation center. It is a message we ought to be sending other nations, as we keep doors open to the law-abiding only.

https://cis.org/Report/Examination-US-Immigration-Policy-and-Serious-Crime Written in 2001

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

I won't dispute any of that quote.

But demonizing all immigrants (or at least all the ones with brown skin) is what Trump is trying to do.

And the fools are falling for it.

Look how many fell for the 'Soros is behind the Caravans". Or "They are invading the US."

Total bullshit.

[jakee 1,594]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Quite frankly, I just do not understand my liberal fellow skydivers on here. I simply don't get how you guys can be so heels dug in about letting illegal aliens in the country. I'm beginning to think that it may be a case of, "It hasn't hit close to home for you." It has for me and I just want you guys to know that I will continue to support Trump as long as he continues to either 1) build a way, 2) use the military, or 3) we can come up with some bipartisan way to secure our borders. I don't know if that means via manpower + drones + + +

How many crimes have been committed by the Americans who are in Texas jails? What do you plan to do about them? Are you going to kick all the Americans out of Texas so they can't commit anymore crimes or do your bleeding heart snowflake ideas about freedom get in the way of that?

 

Aliens are humans (hehe), some humans are bad. If you can deal with the badness of humans who have the same colour passport as you, you can deal with the badness of those who don't.

[BIGUN 1,483]

15 hours ago, jakee said:

 If you can deal with the badness of humans who have the same colour passport as you, you can deal with the badness of those who don't.

Ummm. No. No I don't. And, where do you live again and how is this any of your business? See. I have the power to vote in THIS country. How about you just focus on your own country and it's issues.