Landing a step-through/tangled parachute

[jheadley 0]

A guy at my dz had an interesting jump yesterday. He opened up after an uneventful solo to find several step throughs and tangles in his parachute. The risers were twisted, stepped(sp?) through, lines tangled, and the canopy was actually flying backwards. The parachute was square so he actually did not chop it immediately and rode it down to the ground. He has very little control of it, he was able to steer it just a little bit (flying backwards) and landed off, near the dz.

When asked why he did not chop it, he said that when he considered cutting away, he was at 2000 feet, below his decision altitude of 2500, so he decided to ride it in.

This guy wasn't a student, shockingly he had about 130 jumps and was not very current. It worries me that a lot of people it seems are hesitant or even afraid to execute their emergency procedures. People landing line-overs, fighting spinning line twists down to 1000 feet, etc. I did not catch where he was trained at, but his training must not have been too good. I think this also makes a good point that training doesn't stop after an A license, instructors should make a point to continually teach and review people well after their license. There are probably a lot of people like this guy out there who don't know how to handle a malfunction properly.

It was unclear whether the canopy was hooked up incorrectly or just packed incorrectly He claims a packer packed it a few months ago but we're doubtful of that. He and the DZO had a pretty long talk afterwards thankfully.

[waltappel 1]

I might choose to land a canopy like that depending on whether I wanted to get some more jumps in that weekend, and I have no fear of cutaways. If the canopy was capable of landing him safely, and apparently it *did* land him safely, I'd say it's his judgement call.

I'd *definitely* question his reasoning, though.

Walt

[Reginald 0]

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I think this also makes a good point that training doesn't stop after an A license, instructors should make a point to continually teach and review people well after their license.

How about "skydivers" should make a point to continually learn and review well after their license.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[billvon 3,109]

Depending on the extent of the problem and the canopy, I'd probably land it. If I was jumping my Pilot 150, and had a step-through that left me flying backwards, I'd probably keep it. On my Nitro 108, I wouldn't try to land it backwards, but I'd land it if there was one step-through and the brakes were accessible.

I'm all for using the reserve if you need to. But if you have a flying canopy over your head that will land you OK, sometimes it's better to keep it than to take a chance with door #2.

[justinb138 0]

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He claims a packer packed it a few months ago but we're doubtful of that.

So he jumped a rig that a packer (allegedly) packed a few months before without opening it up and repacking it?

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He and the DZO had a pretty long talk afterwards thankfully.

Did he point him in the direction of the nearest bowling alley or golf course?

[Remster 30]

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So he jumped a rig that a packer (allegedly) packed a few months before without opening it up and repacking it?

Putting asside the alledgedly, is that a problem?

Remster

[PhreeZone 20]

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I did not catch where he was trained at, but his training must not have been too good.

His training could have been first rate and given by god himself, but judgement and decision making can either enchance or nullify all the training in the world. I've heard jumpers say they would reach back and try to pull their pin if they have a PC in tow. Is that taught anywhere? Not to my knowledge, but since decision making is introduced they can choose to ignore their training and have an entirely different choice.

Smart decision making needs to be taught, not just reactions.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mark 107]

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[T]he canopy was actually flying backwards.

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It was unclear whether the canopy was hooked up incorrectly or just packed incorrectly He claims a packer packed it a few months ago but we're doubtful of that.

Canopies do not fly backwards just because they're packed incorrectly. I'm going to speculate on what I think is a more likely scenario:

-- main canopy was packed before reserve repack was due;
-- main canopy (still in its d-bag) was removed from rig for repack;
-- rig was returned to jumper after repack;
-- jumper hooked up main (still in d-bag) without doing a line check;
-- jumper got lucky enough.

If this is what really happened, a few bucks for a new main pack would have been cheap insurance; a few more bucks to relearn how to pack would be a good investment.

Mark

[justinb138 0]

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So he jumped a rig that a packer (allegedly) packed a few months before without opening it up and repacking it?

Putting asside the alledgedly, is that a problem?

With me it would be. Having seen new-ish ZP stick together after being packed for a relatively short time, I won't jump a main that's been packed for more than a month without repacking it.

Hell, I'll pull my ZP PC out and repack it if it's been in the BOC for more than a week or so, but maybe I'm just obsessive about that kind of stuff.

[AggieDave 6]

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With me it would be. Having seen new-ish ZP stick together after being packed for a relatively short time, I won't jump a main that's been packed for more than a month without repacking it.

You mean you've seen it stick together on the ground?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Canopies do not fly backwards just because they're packed incorrectly. I'm going to speculate on what I think is a more likely scenario:

-- main canopy was packed before reserve repack was due;
-- main canopy (still in its d-bag) was removed from rig for repack;
-- rig was returned to jumper after repack;
-- jumper hooked up main (still in d-bag) without doing a line check;
-- jumper got lucky enough.

If this is what really happened, a few bucks for a new main pack would have been cheap insurance; a few more bucks to relearn how to pack would be a good investment.

It might not happen in some country. Reserve repack includes an inspection of the main canopy too.

[billvon 3,109]

>Having seen new-ish ZP stick together after being packed for a relatively short time . . .

Hmm. Only time I've seen that happen is when a canopy had something nasty (like blood or soda) on it.

[justinb138 0]

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With me it would be. Having seen new-ish ZP stick together after being packed for a relatively short time, I won't jump a main that's been packed for more than a month without repacking it.

You mean you've seen it stick together on the ground?

I've seen a few canopies that have been packed for a while come out of the d-bag like a brick. I don't doubt that they'd open, eventually.

[jheadley 0]

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Depending on the extent of the problem and the canopy, I'd probably land it. If I was jumping my Pilot 150, and had a step-through that left me flying backwards, I'd probably keep it. On my Nitro 108, I wouldn't try to land it backwards, but I'd land it if there was one step-through and the brakes were accessible.

I'm all for using the reserve if you need to. But if you have a flying canopy over your head that will land you OK, sometimes it's better to keep it than to take a chance with door #2.

The jumper had almost no steering control at all (also no flare, but it was a PD-260) and drifted downwind and landed in a back yard more out of luck than anything else. We learn if it's not there, square, and steerable, then it's a bad parachute. If I were maybe at a dz in the middle of the desert or plains (and I had a PD 260) I might consider landing something like that but at this dz, surrounded by forest, I want something completely steerable.

[AFFI 0]

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I did not catch where he was trained at, but his training must not have been too good.

His training could have been first rate and given by god himself, but judgement and decision making can either enchance or nullify all the training in the world. I've heard jumpers say they would reach back and try to pull their pin if they have a PC in tow. Is that taught anywhere? Not to my knowledge, but since decision making is introduced they can choose to ignore their training and have an entirely different choice.

Smart decision making needs to be taught, not just reactions.

Eric makes a rock solid point! 130 skydives after initial training how could someone possibly blame the solo freefall instruction at the beginning of the jumping career of an individual that screws a pooch?


To follow the original posting further –

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I think this also makes a good point that training doesn't stop after an A license, instructors should make a point to continually teach and review people well after their license.

Anyone who knows me hears me preach about continual training after acquisition of the A License ad nauseam. Personally, I will work with individuals after graduation as long as they are willing to listen but it is not an AFF instructor’s responsibility to “continually teach and review people well after their license” - that is the responsibility of the individual and not everyone does it.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[jsaxton 0]

well technically it's a problem if it was packed > 120 days ago?

[Remster 30]

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well technically it's a problem if it was packed > 120 days ago?

I trusted my reserve packed for 6 months (not every place on earth has the same 120 cycle as the US you know). I'll trust my main for the same amount of time.

Remster

[MrBrant 0]

not questioning this jumper or his decisions:

However, is 2500ft an extremely high decision altitude? (for somebody NOT on student status)

Unless I'm doing a hop&pop, or some CRW (and perhaps the ocasional high-pull on a solo) i'm usually still in freefall at 2500 ft.

I'd cut away anywhere ABOVE 1000 feet. (canopy collision or something, a mal I wouldn't take lower than 1400-1500). To have a mal, and ride it in because you think 2000 feet it too low to cut away just sounds extremetly supid to me. (Not saying in this case it was a bad idea, but he REASON for the decision seems flawed)

is this normal for larger dropzones with higher mean pull-heights?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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well technically it's a problem if it was packed > 120 days ago?

I trusted my reserve packed for 6 months (not every place on earth has the same 120 cycle as the US you know). I'll trust my main for the same amount of time.

Your reserve is probably made out of 0-3 CFM nylon.

Your main is probably made out of ZP nylon.

New ZP nylon can stick together when left packed, forming a brick that takes a while to open. The two are probably apples and oranges.

[Remster 30]

Seriously... I've had my pain packed for months on end while i was moving continents a few times, and while it was a compact mass when I unpacked it to get the reserve packed, it wasnt a glued mass of material... It was simply tight.

Do you have data that shows that months packed actually slows down an openig? Even the FAA regs state that 4 months is within regulation.

Remster

[The111 1]

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i'm usually still in freefall at 2500 ft.

Still in freefall at 2500 ft, and jumping a (snivelly) large Pilot? When exactly do you get seated in your harness?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Seriously... I've had my pain packed for months on end while i was moving continents a few times, and while it was a compact mass when I unpacked it to get the reserve packed, it wasnt a glued mass of material... It was simply tight.

I don't worry about my ZP mains which all have at least a few hundred jumps on them. They take a bit of a set but don't stick or anything.

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Do you have data that shows that months packed actually slows down an openig?

If you search through old posts you'll find annecdotal reports on nearly new ZP canopies bricking, at least one of which was jumped and wasn't opening until the jumper started pulling on the risers.

[marks 0]

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Canopies do not fly backwards just because they're packed incorrectly. I'm going to speculate on what I think is a more likely scenario:

-- main canopy was packed before reserve repack was due;
-- main canopy (still in its d-bag) was removed from rig for repack;
-- rig was returned to jumper after repack;
-- jumper hooked up main (still in d-bag) without doing a line check;
-- jumper got lucky enough.

I was going to say the same thing. you sure it wasnt hooked up wrong? Im guessing if he doesn't change the way it is hooked up, it will happen again on the next jump.

[MrBrant 0]

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i'm usually still in freefall at 2500 ft.

Still in freefall at 2500 ft, and jumping a (snivelly) large Pilot? When exactly do you get seated in your harness?

Breaks are usually unstowed by 18-1900 feet.

I jump at a small cessna dropzone, normal breakoff is 3500 ft, with pull altitude of 2300 feet.

[kelpdiver 2]

So you complete your controllabilty check in 0-100ft? If it floats your boat great, but pushes the guidelines suggested by the USPA (1800). An A is directed to use 2500 - someone uncurrent at 130 would qualify there. But yeah, I'd like to think I'dstill chop at 2k if it looked that bad.

Nonetheless, not ever cutting away I had a marginal situation (bridle looped over a d line) where I wasn't quite sure but opened low enough that I took too long to commit to a change and landed it instead. I wouldn't be surprised if he had never cut away either.