Was it interferance because they weren't Americans?

[Niki1 2]

The Russians set up fake web sites, spread false stories, even set up rallies, protests and demonstrations. The same things that Americans have done and are doing. Was any of this really illegal? I have no doubt the Russians fanned the flames of discontent and that their messages were passed around by citizens of this country. We have people on this site who live in other countries and who express an opinion on our politics. Is that illegal?

A person who tells a lie is culpable. But the person who believes it without checking it out is also blameworthy. I think all the people who believe only what they want to believe are as guilty as the ones who knowingly spread lies. But a closed mind is not against the law. I understand why the Russians would want Trump to win. For the same reason we would like Putin to be an egomaniacal narcissist who is incompetent in his job and lies about things easily proven false so often that half the people blow off whatever he says and the other half "feels" like it's true.

This question is not about collusion. As much as I dislike Trump, I can't imagine anyone was stupid enough to actually coordinate anything with the Russians. Well, maybe his kids but they should get a pass because of who their father is.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[yoink 321]

Niki1

This question is not about collusion. As much as I dislike Trump, I can't imagine anyone was stupid enough to actually coordinate anything with the Russians. Well, maybe his kids but they should get a pass because of who their father is.

That went by me a little fast. Care to explain in a bit more detail why the kids get a pass if they’d committed a crime?

[jcd11235 0]

Indictments and guilty pleas typically only come after it has been demonstrated that a crime has, in fact, been committed.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wmw999 2,600]

In this case right and wrong are defined by the law. Period. It’s against the rules of our game.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jakee 1,609]

Niki1

The Russians set up fake web sites, spread false stories, even set up rallies, protests and demonstrations. The same things that Americans have done and are doing. Was any of this really illegal?

Yes, it was illegal. Which is why they did lots of other illegal things to try and cover it up, including identity theft, use of fraudulent bank accounts and money laundering. Read the indictment.

Quote

We have people on this site who live in other countries and who express an opinion on our politics. Is that illegal?

No, it is not illegal.

Quote

This question is not about collusion. As much as I dislike Trump, I can't imagine anyone was stupid enough to actually coordinate anything with the Russians.

And yet we know for a certainty that some of them tried to.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,175]

Collusion (likely) or no collusion (I doubt that) the very fact that Russia considered it to be to its advantage to have Trump as president is VERY telling. "Russia First"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Niki1 2]

yoink

***

That went by me a little fast. Care to explain in a bit more detail why the kids get a pass if they’d committed a crime?

Sorry. A poor attempt at sarcasm. Idiots should suffer the consequences just like us smart folks. I do have a hard time thinking anyone colluded with the Russians.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[yoink 321]

Niki1

******

That went by me a little fast. Care to explain in a bit more detail why the kids get a pass if they’d committed a crime?

Sorry. A poor attempt at sarcasm. Idiots should suffer the consequences just like us smart folks. I do have a hard time thinking anyone colluded with the Russians.

Cool. Tone of message is tough to convey in text. I was wondering if I missued something!

[rushmc 23]

kallend

Collusion (likely) or no collusion (I doubt that) the very fact that Russia considered it to be to its advantage to have Trump as president is VERY telling. "Russia First"?

Lofl

I guess I might know how you voted in my poll.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

jcd11235

Indictments and guilty pleas typically only come after it has been demonstrated that a crime has, in fact, been committed.

And yet nothing even closely related to any kind of collusion. Except for Hillary of course in her campaign! We know for a fact there was collusion there.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Niki1 2]

I took jakee's suggestion and actually read (through) the indictment. The Russians didn't register as foreign agents and if they had they would not have been allowed to spend money on electioneering because they are foreign That was the illegality. I wholeheartedly agree with that concept.

I didn't notice anything but the presidential campaign mentioned. I wonder if they also targeted congressional or even local campaigns. This shit storm is not going to be easy to remedy. How do we make sure it doesn't happen again. It seems to have been rather easy to enlist unwitting Americans to do their work for them. And now that we know how they did it what's to stop Americans from doing the same thing.

Americans should be the only ones interfering, I mean influencing American elections.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[Bob_Church 7]

I'm just curious, but not enough to dig through all the stuff. They keep saying "Russians." There are millions of Russians. Are they actually saying "representatives of the Russian government" or just people with Russian IP numbers?

[jcd11235 0]

rushmc

And yet nothing even closely related to any kind of collusion. Except for Hillary of course in her campaign! We know for a fact there was collusion there.

The two substantially different standards of evidence your post implies you have for Comrade Trump vs. HRC is very telling of your biases.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[AlanS 1]

Niki1

I took jakee's suggestion and actually read (through) the indictment. ...

... I wonder if they also targeted congressional or even local campaigns.

An unfortunate side-effect of the press coverage of the Mueller investigation is, it only scratches the surface how how Russian agents have been/are trying to interfere with (not just American) but all western democracies.

The media didn't seem to follow it, but Russia was active during the presidential primaries acting against candidates like Mario Rubio.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-rubio-russian-target-trolls-20170330-story.html

Well before this election, his trolling organization was going after Sen. McCain who is another opponent of Putin.


Based on the coverage and comments from people here (some of whom should know better) you would think Russian interference had just one purpose which is to get Trump elected. Even if Russia did prefer one candidate, their aim is much broader, which is to use freedom of speech and the internet to polarize the societies in western democracies with the goal undermining them.

Russian twitter bots, and the troll farm located in St. Petersburg have taken both side of many controversial issues. They amplified the "CalExit" tweet and online presence, created many inflammatory tweets/posts on both sides of the "black lives matter" movement, and did the same for the "NLF anthem" controversy. On any issues where Putin can create division wether political, racial, class-warfare, he has directed his trolling organizations to do it. Any thing that will create divisions within western societies he is chipping away at.

Creating this instability is Putin's primary goal, because it legitimize his authoritarian rule of Russia.

Quote

This shit storm is not going to be easy to remedy. How do we make sure it doesn't happen again. ...

This "shit storm" is nothing compared to what could have happened and if we don't get prepared can still happen in a future election.

The one card Putin could have played but DIDN'T in the last election was corrupt the election results making the election out-come uncertain. Russia successfully hacked in the election databases of 30 states. They download voter registrations for many of places and could have if the chose modified the databases.

Russia right now has the full voter registration information for 10s of millions of US voters. We need to be prepared for that attempt in the future, but my worry here is the two parties are so intent on sticking it to each other that we won't fix the flaws in our election processes and secure those databases.

[AlanS 1]

Bob_Church

I'm just curious, but not enough to dig through all the stuff. They keep saying "Russians." There are millions of Russians. Are they actually saying "representatives of the Russian government" or just people with Russian IP numbers?

Putin's toll factory is at this address in St. Petersburg.

55 Savushkina Street

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ulitsa+Savushkina,+55,+Sankt-Peterburg,+Russia,+197183/@59.984051,30.272087,3a,75y,343.67h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skwfAlinuvZZKaacFOTOEaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x469636a703f1053d:0xa49ad8ba66d0d988!8m2!3d59.984332!4d30.271929


According to the interview about 300 to 400 workers working around the clock in two, 12 hour shifts. Other sources say 1,000 working if you include off-site workers.

Interview with former troll.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/17/a-former-russian-troll-speaks-it-was-like-being-in-orwells-world/?utm_term=.c438e5c3dc9b


A blogger's quota is ten posts per shift, each post at least 750 characters. A commenter's norm is 126 comments and two posts per account. Each blogger is in charge of three accounts

Other's assigned to commenting on news stories had ...

50 comments under news articles per day. Each blogger has to manage six accounts on Facebook, post at least three posts every day, and participate twice in the group discussions.

Other employees have to manage 10 accounts on Twitter, publishing 50 tweets every day.

[kallend 2,175]

The indictment says that while the Russians began their scheme in 2014 with the goal of undermining the American democratic system, they eventually shifted their focus to trying to help elect Trump ,

"Russia First"

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DJL 235]

rushmc

***Indictments and guilty pleas typically only come after it has been demonstrated that a crime has, in fact, been committed.

And yet nothing even closely related to any kind of collusion. Except for Hillary of course in her campaign! We know for a fact there was collusion there.

The prosecutor has made it clear that this specific issue is not related to and does not address any other aspect of the investigation.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[AlanS 1]

kallend

The indictment says that while the Russians began their scheme in 2014 with the goal of undermining the American democratic system, they eventually shifted their focus to trying to help elect Trump ,

"Russia First"

Putin created these efforts when saw the "color revolutions" rolling though Eastern Europe and the old soviet republics and how they were using the internet effectively to organize. Rather than seeing it as an opportunity to integrate Russia into the western order - which would have been good for all Russians both economically and politically - Putin saw it as a threat to his own personal rule.

Putin's goal became to neutralize the internet. He does this by amplifying political debates online to make them more polarizing and caustic in nature so that normal people in these societies would not want to participate and are confused by the noise.

To the extent that we ourselves - giving in to our emotional sides more than our logical sides - and making these debates hyper-partisan and more extreme we are helping him.

[AlanS 1]

Russian Troll factory hacked, documents downloaded and about to be released.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/exclusive-secret-documents-from-russias-election-trolls-leak

Quote

One of the employees who visited America was Anna Vladislavovna Bogacheva, then the head of the troll farm’s Department of Analytics. The auction of the leaked IRA data offers a glimpse into that department’s work, which appears focused on understanding America and teasing out the most contentious issues. One department folder is titled “US Migration Policy,” which would prove a cornerstone of the IRA’s most divisive trolling.

Quote

After completing its recon, a key tactic of the troll farm was to present its offerings as authentically American. They stole actual Americans’ identities and established false cover identities online. A consistent approach was to posture as supporters of passionate causes. But those causes varied wildly across the political spectrum. Some Internet Research Agency-created accounts pretended to be Muslim groups, others anti-Muslim activists. They were advocates of black liberation on one hand and its most fervent American critics on the other—whatever was necessary to aggravate long-standing and very real American divisions.

Social media—particularly YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter—magnified the troll farm’s reach. The money flowing into the Internet Research Agency’s coffers paid for a graphics department, data analytics, and other tools to improve their product, and they tailored their English-language propaganda to show up prominently in Google searches. One employee bragged: “I created all these pictures and posts, and the Americans believed that it was written by their people.”

Quote

While the troll farm’s use of YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook is now well-known, the leak shows that the Internet Research Agency also operated on Reddit and had a substantial footprint on Tumblr. They documented and tracked their personalized interactions with specific, unsuspecting Americans, some of whom are named in the leaks.

Those outreach efforts display conceptual sophistication. The leaks show that IRA imposter accounts targeted activists for specific causes the Russians wanted promoted.

[RonD1120 62]

I have stated several times IMO, facts to support posts are not trustworthy. They can be manipulated, created and thus become outright lies.

We are being played by dark forces.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DJL 235]

RonD1120

I have stated several times IMO, facts to support posts are not trustworthy. They can be manipulated, created and thus become outright lies.

We are being played by dark forces.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Kind of like how the Christian Bible was rewritten from the original text in the Torah to eliminate items that disproved Jesus fulfilling the requirements of the prophesied messiah. Yeah man, I know what you mean.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 2,175]

RonD1120

I have stated several times IMO, facts to support posts are not trustworthy. They can be manipulated, created and thus become outright lies.

FACTS - definitely untrustworthy. The myths of neolithic goat herders, OTOH....

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.