the 4th of July confession

[rushmc 23]

He got there because of your anti American bullshit. Live with it!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

DanG

So, according to you, the US had no national interest in fighting the Germans, but we sent hundreds of thousands of troops, billions of dollars in funds and equipment, and went on a national war footing because Germany declared war? Not because we were actually threatened by Germany, you already established that American liberty was never at stake. We did it all over a piece of paper?

And to get back to the point of the thread, the individual men and women who actually fought in Europe and the Pacific didn’t sell arms to the Nazis. What they did in helping to defeat the Axis was noble and heroic.

Kinda 'Black & White' isn't it?

The US had significant national security and humanitarian reasons to enter the war.

Yet the war had been going on for over 2 years before we entered it.

We were content to sit on the sidelines and watch...

Until we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. At which point, the "sleeping giant" Yamamoto was afraid of 'was awakened and filled with a terrible resolve'.

As a side note, the attack on Pearl Harbor was a huge mistake. Both tactical and strategic. The attack missed the repair facilities, which allowed the US to fix most of the damaged ships and get them out fairly quickly.

From a strategic point, if Japan had declared war on the US in a more conventional way, the US Navy would have sailed out into the western Pacific, using the then conventional 'battleship doctrine'...

And been destroyed. The loss of life would have been in the tens of thousands, the ships would have been at the bottom of the ocean instead of in shallow water in Pearl, the isolationists would have been given a huge boost and we likely would have capitulated and reached a negotiated settlement with Japan, giving them huge territorial gains in SE Asia and the Pacific.

And while it's true that there were noble and heroic individuals in both theaters, there were also numerous accounts of war crimes committed by the allies and cowardice on the part of soldiers, sailors & airmen.

For a fascinating example of the latter, look up the 'deserter underground' in Paris following liberation.

I'm not trying to bash either the US or the military, I just refuse to participate in the "American Fantasy" that everything we do or have ever done is noble and just.
I prefer reality.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Bob_Church 7]

rushmc

He got there because of your anti American bullshit. Live with it!

What amazes me is how a smug asshole like Trump can become President because his opponents are even worse smug assholes.
This Country desperately needs a third party. If we don't get a successful challenger to the Democrat and Republican lock out of the last election then nothing will ever do it.

[tkhayes 348]

well that took a while... like a decade or more.

I accept your apology. Forgive and forget? Forgive, sure, You are forgiven. But your continued behavior gives me angst. It does not demonstrate real change and new examples of the same behavior(s) are not automatically forgiven.

Forget? Never. Like I said, you have a habit of being the worst of what christianity brings to the table.

[DanG 1]

I never said that everything the US does is good, and I don't believe that.

Let's review the conversation:

1. Rush posts some stuff about regretting he didn't sign up and thanks veterans for protecting his freedoms.
2. The America haters get all in a huff and declare that the US military has never fought to secure American freedom, at least not since 1776.
3. I say, "what about WWII?"
4. The America haters declare that:
A. The US didn't fight WWII to secure American freedom.
B. The US was never threatened by the Axis powers.
C. The US was complicit in the Nazi expansion and the holocaust.
D. The US entered the war because Germany declared war and we just wouldn't stand for that, even though Germany had no plans to ever attack us and up to that point we had apparently been rooting for Germany.
5. I attampt to point out that it doesn't make any sense to simultaneously declare that the US wasn't threatened, but we only joined because we were threatened.
6. Everyone declares that I must not have graduated fifth grade. (As opposed to the degree in Foreign Affairs with a focus on Western Europe).
7. I give up, you all win, the US has never fought a good war and all veterans are baby killers, cowards, and secret Nazis.

- Dan G

[jakee 1,594]

DanG

2. The America haters get all in a huff and declare that the US military has never fought to secure American freedom, at least not since 1776.
3. I say, "what about WWII?"

Sorry Dan, but that’s a gross misrepresentation of the conversation.

Your first post in this thread explicitly acknowledged that US freedom was not under threat when you entered WW2.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DanG 1]

You're right, I expanded the concept of a threat to liberty. That's because I recognize, and have been consistent about, the fact that Germany wasn't a direct threat to the US. People arguing the other side have taken the contradictory positions that the US was never threatened, and we only joined the war because we were threatened.

- Dan G

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

If we don't get a successful challenger to the Democrat and Republican lock out of the last election then nothing will ever do it.

First past the post voting systems tend to two major parties. If we want candidates from other parties to have reasonable & plausible chances of being elected, we'll have to change the voting system.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

DanG

(As opposed to the degree in Foreign Affairs with a focus on Western Europe).

So you're saying your ignorance of history is an act and you're just a troll? Got it.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,594]

DanG

You're right, I expanded the concept of a threat to liberty. That's because I recognize, and have been consistent about, the fact that Germany wasn't a direct threat to the US.

Then you should probably change you breakdown of how the conversation went. Right now you’re taking the contradictory positions that you stated the US was not threatened and that the US was threatened.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DJL 235]

DanG

I never said that everything the US does is good, and I don't believe that.

Let's review the conversation:

1. Rush posts some stuff about regretting he didn't sign up and thanks veterans for protecting his freedoms.
2. The America haters get all in a huff and declare that the US military has never fought to secure American freedom, at least not since 1776.
3. I say, "what about WWII?"
4. The America haters declare that:
A. The US didn't fight WWII to secure American freedom.
B. The US was never threatened by the Axis powers.
C. The US was complicit in the Nazi expansion and the holocaust.
D. The US entered the war because Germany declared war and we just wouldn't stand for that, even though Germany had no plans to ever attack us and up to that point we had apparently been rooting for Germany.
5. I attampt to point out that it doesn't make any sense to simultaneously declare that the US wasn't threatened, but we only joined because we were threatened.
6. Everyone declares that I must not have graduated fifth grade. (As opposed to the degree in Foreign Affairs with a focus on Western Europe).
7. I give up, you all win, the US has never fought a good war and all veterans are baby killers, cowards, and secret Nazis.

It was really sort of like the game of telephone because the person responding replied to the post but not the context within the preceding post.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 235]

DanG

You're right, I expanded the concept of a threat to liberty. That's because I recognize, and have been consistent about, the fact that Germany wasn't a direct threat to the US. People arguing the other side have taken the contradictory positions that the US was never threatened, and we only joined the war because we were threatened.

I read up a few nights ago, when this thread started, on the people who were apposed to the war and why, quite a read. Here's one of the better articles I found.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/the-debate-behind-us-intervention-in-world-war-ii/277572/

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[gowlerk 2,273]

Mostly the complicated story of Lindbergh. Both an American patriot and a lover of German industriousness. But one quote really got me, and it has echoes today:

Quote

Writing in his diary in the summer of 1940, he bemoaned the decline of American society--"the superficiality, the cheapness, the lack of understanding of, or interest in, fundamental problems." And making the problems worse were the Jews. "There are too many places like New York already," he wrote, alluding to that city's Jewish population. "A few Jews add strength and character to a country, but too many create chaos. And we are getting too many."

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

DanG

I never said that everything the US does is good, and I don't believe that.

Let's review the conversation:

1. Rush posts some stuff about regretting he didn't sign up and thanks veterans for protecting his freedoms.
2. The America haters get all in a huff and declare that the US military has never fought to secure American freedom, at least not since 1776.
3. I say, "what about WWII?"
4. The America haters declare that:
A. The US didn't fight WWII to secure American freedom.
B. The US was never threatened by the Axis powers.
C. The US was complicit in the Nazi expansion and the holocaust.
D. The US entered the war because Germany declared war and we just wouldn't stand for that, even though Germany had no plans to ever attack us and up to that point we had apparently been rooting for Germany.
5. I attampt to point out that it doesn't make any sense to simultaneously declare that the US wasn't threatened, but we only joined because we were threatened.
6. Everyone declares that I must not have graduated fifth grade. (As opposed to the degree in Foreign Affairs with a focus on Western Europe).
7. I give up, you all win, the US has never fought a good war and all veterans are baby killers, cowards, and secret Nazis.

Your ability to summarize seems to match your history knowledge. I responded to your assertion that the US entered the war for wonderful humanitarian reasons. That is grade A bullshit and full of revisionist history.

Pointing out that thinking everything the US military does is just absolutely wonderful and always has been isn't the same as American bashing. It does show how ingrained this forced love of the military is.

[DJL 235]

You're tying too hard to corner Dan into a point he didn't make. We fought the war to take down Hitler and Pearl Harbor was the catalyst that we were able to use to cement our resolve. Pearl Harbor was bombed December 1941. By that time the US was in a full swing providing munitions and supplies to Britain and by the fall the USSR. The US Navy was defacto at war losing ships to German submarines. While the political "mood" within the US was hesitant, the government and military were preparing to fight. Yes, there's no doubt we should have been in it earlier.

What all countries did in fighting against Hitler was good, however you're making some leaps in thinking that the world knew what was going on. Mobile gas vans were used in 1941, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Aushwitz were not active until 1942. Yes, word of atrocities was getting out but in 1941 the world didn't have the luxury of 70 years of information to know exactly what happened and where.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[rushmc 23]

Bob_Church

***He got there because of your anti American bullshit. Live with it!

What amazes me is how a smug asshole like Trump can become President because his opponents are even worse smug assholes.
This Country desperately needs a third party. If we don't get a successful challenger to the Democrat and Republican lock out of the last election then nothing will ever do it.

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[gowlerk 2,273]

Quote

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

As I remember you did not like him very much until he sewed up the nomination.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,594]

rushmc

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

Careful Rush, your leg is tingling.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

gowlerk

Quote

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

As I remember you did not like him very much until he sewed up the nomination.

You are correct in as much as he was not my first choice. I liked Cruz. But I got to say he's exceeded my expectations!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

jakee

***we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

Careful Rush, your leg is tingling.

Well, you may be seeing that but you have to remember the following. The first person that said his leg was tingling was just based on a guy getting the nomination and having no history. Now we've got Trump. Who's got a history winning and doing the right thing. So if you see it as my leg tingling, so be it. I really don't care. Little bit weird Association based on the way the other one went but so be it. I realize who it's coming from.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,594]

Quote

The first person that said his leg was tingling was just based on a guy getting the nomination and having no history.

He had a history of winning elections.

Quote

Who's got a history winning and doing the right thing.

Errr. Mahhh. Geeerrrrrrrrd!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bob_Church 7]

rushmc

******He got there because of your anti American bullshit. Live with it!

What amazes me is how a smug asshole like Trump can become President because his opponents are even worse smug assholes.
This Country desperately needs a third party. If we don't get a successful challenger to the Democrat and Republican lock out of the last election then nothing will ever do it.

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

I just can't get behind that. I don't disagree with everything he does simply because he's doing it, but I think the only reason he's president is because of the bizarre crap the DNC pulled to run the only person in the world he could beat.
We've been smiling at people while they piss on us for far too long and he knows that. So he's going to get a few right, at least I hope, but unless he pulls some real surprises I don't think I'll ever see him as being qualified to be President, let alone best. On the other hand, at the rate the DNC is going it looks like he might have an extra four years to practice, so who knows?
I still still think a used car salesman from Ashland Kentucky who just got off parole for setting back odometers could have beat either of them. I just hope I live long enough to read an accurate book about what really happened to put HRC up as candidate.

[jclalor 12]

rushmc

******He got there because of your anti American bullshit. Live with it!

What amazes me is how a smug asshole like Trump can become President because his opponents are even worse smug assholes.
This Country desperately needs a third party. If we don't get a successful challenger to the Democrat and Republican lock out of the last election then nothing will ever do it.

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

Read them and weep:

http://www.people-press.org/2018/07/11/obama-tops-publics-list-of-best-president-in-their-lifetime-followed-by-clinton-reagan/

[rushmc 23]

jclalor

*********He got there because of your anti American bullshit. Live with it!

What amazes me is how a smug asshole like Trump can become President because his opponents are even worse smug assholes.
This Country desperately needs a third party. If we don't get a successful challenger to the Democrat and Republican lock out of the last election then nothing will ever do it.

we currently have the best president that we've ever had in your and my lifetime.

Read them and weep:

http://www.people-press.org/2018/07/11/obama-tops-publics-list-of-best-president-in-their-lifetime-followed-by-clinton-reagan/

Which means absolutely nothing at this point now does it? You know that is good as anybody. I was just giving an opinion based on my experiences and what I have seen from presidents in my lifetime. History will make the final judgement. And right now history is not doing Obama any good

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Pew also said this week that Trump is as popular as Obama at this point in his presidency. How does that make you feel?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln