Donald Trump did the RIGHT thing on pulling out of Paris Accords

[billvon 3,120]

>A $30K auto loan works out to ~$500 per month. Not something the average person can do
>or something the banks would let them do without gold plated credit.

A used 2011 Leaf costs $5500. Don't need gold plated credit for that.

Or if you want new you can get a Volt for $2500 down and $115 a month. Again, not something that's going to be impossible for the average American - that monthly cost represents 2% of the monthly income for the average US household.

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>A $30K auto loan works out to ~$500 per month. Not something the average person can do
>or something the banks would let them do without gold plated credit.

A used 2011 Leaf costs $5500. Don't need gold plated credit for that.

Or if you want new you can get a Volt for $2500 down and $115 a month. Again, not something that's going to be impossible for the average American - that monthly cost represents 2% of the monthly income for the average US household.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111264_new-life-for-old-nissan-leaf-electric-car-battery-replacement-and-what-it-took

Quote

The 2018 Nissan Leaf will likely be revealed within the next three months, but more than 100,000 older Leaf electric cars are still silently in use on U.S. roads.

Some of them, especially the lowest-range cars from the two earliest model years (2011 and 2012), have started to see significant battery capacity degradation.

That was the case with Rick and Linda SantAngelos' 2011 Nissan Leaf after 90,000 miles: it had only 30 to 35 miles of range left on a battery originally EPA-rated at 73 miles of range.

That made their early Leaf all but unusable, as Rick recounted in a post we published in late March.

At that point, Nissan Leaf Customer Support had told them that the battery condition was normal and to be expected, and that the car wasn't worth enough that they should spend more than $8,000 on a new battery.

Their local dealer claimed to know nothing about the $6,500 price for a new pack that Nissan announced almost three years ago, and they got no help on that front from Customer Support either.

Great idea Bill. Let's have someone who is already struggling buy a 2011 Nissan leaf and have to spend $6500 to replace the batteries. Iwonder if they could just include the replacement costs in their car loan

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,120]

>Great idea Bill. Let's have someone who is already struggling buy a 2011 Nissan leaf and have
>to spend $6500 to replace the batteries.

In that case they shouldn't replace the batteries.

The average commuting distance in LA is 8.8 miles. In NYC, 7.7. In Chicago, 10. For a commuter car, a 35 mile range is fine.

[Bob_Church 7]

billvon

>A $30K auto loan works out to ~$500 per month. Not something the average person can do
>or something the banks would let them do without gold plated credit.

A used 2011 Leaf costs $5500. Don't need gold plated credit for that.

Or if you want new you can get a Volt for $2500 down and $115 a month. Again, not something that's going to be impossible for the average American - that monthly cost represents 2% of the monthly income for the average US household.

I'm getting whiplash here. It's ok to enslave Chinese peasants and destroy the Earth to give us cheaper electronics then anyone who doesn't run out and buy a new EV just doesn't care.

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>Great idea Bill. Let's have someone who is already struggling buy a 2011 Nissan leaf and have
>to spend $6500 to replace the batteries.

In that case they shouldn't replace the batteries.

The average commuting distance in LA is 8.8 miles. In NYC, 7.7. In Chicago, 10. For a commuter car, a 35 mile range is fine.

You're right. Let the poor bastards be stuck with used up toys. 10 miles in Chicago might take and hour and a half. In the summer, with the AC on...willing to bet you don't make it round trip without stopping to charge somewhere.

But what do you care? You're not driving someone else's used up toy. Until the makers figure out how to make new EV's at the same price as their gas burning counterparts...you know the rest.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,120]

Quote

It's ok to enslave Chinese peasants and destroy the Earth to give us cheaper electronics then anyone who doesn't run out and buy a new EV just doesn't care.

?? Who said "anyone who doesn't run out and buy a new EV just doesn't care?"

[PhreeZone 20]

airdvr

******
Teslas are still the toys of the upper class and not anywhere near something that could be purchased by the average person here.

That I would maybe agree with. There are plenty of other EV's and hybrids emerging.

Average income in the US is $59,000.00. If you take out the over-inflated coastal wages I'm sure it's even less. At a tax rate of 30% that works out to just under $800 per week. A $30K auto loan works out to ~$500 per month. Not something the average person can do or something the banks would let them do without gold plated credit.

Sorry...the EV market in general in still for the upper crust. FUnny how many here don't realize how much better they have it than your average Joe.

And yet the average cost of the most popular truck in America is $42,373 right now. That is a $850 per month loan payment for a 5 year loan or $625 per month for a 72 month loan. Ford sold 896,764 F-150's last year (2 per seconds every minute of the day) and have sold 287,295 in the first four month of 2018. They sold 81,866 (10 per hour) Mustangs last year with an average market paid price of $32,862. 238,056 Explorers (1 every 2 minutes 24/7) were sold at an average market price of $36,539. Right there are 1,265,925 new cars sold in the US that have similar prices.

At that point you might as well say that owning a car is still for the upper crust only.

We get it - you have an massive hate for all those "left coast liberals" and resent anyone that makes the decision to do anything different than you think they should. This is clear in terms of how much you complain about your family that is living in the bay area and your swipes at "over inflated coastal wages". Issue is that the wages are inflated in any city over living in smaller towns. As a manager in Grand Forks ND you will not get the same money as in Denver - thats just a function of the size of the city driving the wages

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,120]

>You're right. Let the poor bastards be stuck with used up toys.

Like most Americans who buy used cars.

>10 miles in Chicago might take and hour and a half. In the summer, with the AC on...

Right. And the slower you go, the more efficient an EV is. Remember, no idling or "being in the wrong gear" for efficiency - and about 5% of the tare losses.

>But what do you care? You're not driving someone else's used up toy.

My first three cars were someone else's used up toy. They got me to work and back, and that's all I really needed them for. Perhaps someone with your jet-setting lifestyle needs a Lexus SUV, but most people just need transportation.

[airdvr 210]

The Ford marketing is working on you. Any idea how many of those Ford trucks were purchased by Federal, State, and local governments?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

Sitting in traffic with the AC on doesn't take the battery? I didn't know the perpetual motion AC system had been invented. And I'm not the one who suggested someone buy a vehicle worth less than the cost of replacing it's mode of propulsion.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,120]

>Sitting in traffic with the AC on doesn't take the battery?

It sure does. It just takes a lot less energy than idling an ICE.

The Leaf A/C takes 1.5kw at a medium setting. That means if you have 50% battery capacity remaining (i.e. 35 miles range) you could run it for 16 hours.

So yes, if you are sitting in your car for more than 5 hours a day, and have a 10 mile commute, you might have a problem. (Of course if you are sitting in your car for more than 5 hours a day for a 10 mile commute, people who walk to work will be passing you.)

>I didn't know the perpetual motion AC system had been invented.

Posting things like that just make your comments look uninformed.

[Bob_Church 7]

"We get it - you have an massive hate for all those "left coast liberals" and resent anyone that makes the decision to do anything different than you think they should. This is clear in terms of how much you complain about your family that is living in the bay area and your swipes at "over inflated coastal wages". Issue is that the wages are inflated in any city over living in smaller towns. As a manager in Grand Forks ND you will not get the same money as in Denver - thats just a function of the size of the city driving the wages "

But isn't that part of the problem? Where I live, Southeast Ohio, my pay was low compared to a lot of places but my cost of living is even lower. So it all works out, and quite well. Except for automobiles and skydiving gear. I get huge breaks on buying a house and just about everything else but the prices on cars and rigs don't change because of where you live.
I bought a nice house with a little land for just under three years of my salary, but a new Subaru would cost me a year's pay.

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

I get huge breaks on buying a house and just about everything else but the prices on cars and rigs don't change because of where you live.

Off-topic, but …

Another major difference that doesn't (necessarily) equal out is retirement savings. Consider Cities A & B, where an annual salary of $100,000 in A is approximately equivalent to a $75,000 annual salary in B.

Suppose Alice makes $100K in A, while Bob makes $75K in B. If both Alice and Bob save 15 percent of their respective incomes towards retirement (with identical investment strategies), Alice will end up with 33 percent more retirement savings compared to Bob, plus she'll the option of retiring to City B, where the cost of living is lower and she will be able to realize her extra savings as improved living standards.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>Sitting in traffic with the AC on doesn't take the battery?

It sure does. It just takes a lot less energy than idling an ICE.

The Leaf A/C takes 1.5kw at a medium setting. That means if you have 50% battery capacity remaining (i.e. 35 miles range) you could run it for 16 hours.

So yes, if you are sitting in your car for more than 5 hours a day, and have a 10 mile commute, you might have a problem. (Of course if you are sitting in your car for more than 5 hours a day for a 10 mile commute, people who walk to work will be passing you.)

>I didn't know the perpetual motion AC system had been invented.

Posting things like that just make your comments look uninformed.

I'm sure your figures work on a new battery pack. The one's we're referring to discharge at twice the rate they did when they were new.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

Bob_Church

"We get it - you have an massive hate for all those "left coast liberals" and resent anyone that makes the decision to do anything different than you think they should. This is clear in terms of how much you complain about your family that is living in the bay area and your swipes at "over inflated coastal wages". Issue is that the wages are inflated in any city over living in smaller towns. As a manager in Grand Forks ND you will not get the same money as in Denver - thats just a function of the size of the city driving the wages "

But isn't that part of the problem? Where I live, Southeast Ohio, my pay was low compared to a lot of places but my cost of living is even lower. So it all works out, and quite well. Except for automobiles and skydiving gear. I get huge breaks on buying a house and just about everything else but the prices on cars and rigs don't change because of where you live.
I bought a nice house with a little land for just under three years of my salary, but a new Subaru would cost me a year's pay.

I have a disdain for people who are designing the future based on how things are in California.

I live in central Ohio. The cost of living here is definitely less expensive. But it's not a linear curve. Real Estate is roughly 10 times more expensive in San Francisco than here. I don't think people make 10 times as much money for the same work as here, but I understand they do make more.

We already know that Bill and his ilk think the rest of the country is uneducated hilljacks. The future being planned on the West Coast won't fit well in this part of the country. The money isn't here. Fortunately in roughly 10-20 years I won't have to be concerned.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DanG 1]

Holy shit, dude. No one is forcing you to buy an EV. If you don't want one, don't buy one. I don't get why you're so upset about this.

- Dan G

[Bob_Church 7]

DanG

Holy shit, dude. No one is forcing you to buy an EV. If you don't want one, don't buy one. I don't get why you're so upset about this.

It's something that builds up.

[airdvr 210]

DanG

Holy shit, dude. No one is forcing you to buy an EV. If you don't want one, don't buy one. I don't get why you're so upset about this.

Simply because the choice as to whether I will be forced to buy one is being made elsewhere. It happens more than you know. Hundreds of items are mandated to address a problem in a different part of the country. We don't have a water supply issue here however, I'm forced to buy products that conserve water. I have to pay for an airbag in my car whether I want it or not. I can't buy incandescent light bulbs.

If these products are truly better why not let the market decide, as it did when people switched from cassettes to CDs? If an EV is truly better let the market decide. I believe it's only a matter of time before ICE's are outlawed here, like what is happening in other countries.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,120]

>I'm sure your figures work on a new battery pack. The one's we're referring to discharge at twice
>the rate they did when they were new.

Those assume a pack at 50% of original capacity, which is where you'd expect a 2011 Leaf to be at that had been used in a hot climate. With a new battery pack the A/C would run for over a day with no problem.

(BTW they don't _discharge_ at a higher rate; they just have less capacity to start with.)

[billvon 3,120]

>and his ilk

Love it.

You know, there are decaffeinated coffees that taste every bit as good as the caffeinated kind.

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

If these products are truly better why not let the market decide,

Because the market is not a force for good. The market is entirely indifferent to the longterm benefit of society. The market will quite happily fuck you over without noticing or caring if you're in the wrong place or the wrong job at the wrong time.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

airdvr

We already know that Bill and his ilk think the rest of the country is uneducated hilljacks...

...Simply because the choice as to whether I will be forced to buy one is being made elsewhere. It happens more than you know. Hundreds of items are mandated to address a problem in a different part of the country. We don't have a water supply issue here however, I'm forced to buy products that conserve water. I have to pay for an airbag in my car whether I want it or not. I can't buy incandescent light bulbs.

If these products are truly better why not let the market decide, as it did when people switched from cassettes to CDs? If an EV is truly better let the market decide. I believe it's only a matter of time before ICE's are outlawed here, like what is happening in other countries.

The only ones I see Bill treating like "uneducated hilljacks" are the ones who post like...

Uneducated Hilljacks. There are some. Broad assumptions, wild exaggerations, blatant prejudices (some racial, some other), seriously misinformed about some really basic stuff.
Some seem to be much smarter, yet post like idiots. Others, well, seem to actually believe the bullshit they post.

And some stuff is 'forced' because people are often really stupid.

One example is pollution control on cars. Mandated, required, forced upon the consumer. Some places require compliance testing. Yet some idiots still insist on defeating it.
They ignore how bad the air was back in the early 70s, and feel that their car doesn't pollute enough to matter. Which it really doesn't. But when millions, even tens of millions of cars are polluting, you get...

LA in the early 70s.

So everyone is forced to comply. And the end result is actually pretty good.

Light bulbs are a similar example. Incandescent bulbs are pretty bad. Even the good ones are inefficient, generate a lot of heat and don't last long. A decent LED will generate very little heat (A/C load is less), last a lot longer and consume a tiny fraction of the power.
Yet dumbass consumers see a LED for $10 or so and an incandescent for $0.99 and make their choice based on that.
Once more, when you get tens of millions, or in the case of light bulbs, hundreds of millions of them on a much more efficient platform, the power load goes down considerably. Less power generated means less CO2 emitted. Better all the way around.

Airbags save lives. So do seatbelts. That's why there are laws requiring them. I don't like them much (I believe it should be a choice), but I understand the fact that far, far too many people believe that they are 'special' and that they won't get into an accident.

FWIW, with the holiday weekend coming up, the WI State Patrol was on a media campaign about seat belts. The state has nearly 90% seat belt usage, yet nearly half of the fatalities come from the 10% who don't wear one.

And can you tell me what 'other countries' have outlawed internal combustion engined cars?

There are several that have proposed bans, set to take place in the future. But those are only for new car sales. And none are set to take place for at least 7 years. Most are further out.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,120]

Some more good news.

From the EIA's 2018 short term energy outlook:

In this outlook, coal's forecast share of electricity generation falls from 30% in 2017 to 28% in 2018 and to 27% in 2019. . . . Nonhydropower renewables provided slightly less than 10% of electricity generation in 2017 and are expected to provide more than 10% in 2018 and nearly 11% in 2019.

Coal Consumption

EIA estimates that coal consumption in the electric power sector for the first half of 2018 declined by 13 MMst (4%) compared with the same period in 2017, despite increases in overall electricity generation. Coal consumption in the electric power sector is forecast to decrease by 24 MMst (4%) for all of 2018 and by 30 MMst (5%) in 2019. The decrease in power sector consumption reflects increased electricity generation from natural gas and renewable energy sources and the recent closure of coal-fired power plants.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/

[RMK 3]

Does that include the "clean" coal that Donald Trump tells us about?

It must be good because he adds extra enunciation when he says the word "clean"; even says it twice.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[billvon 3,120]

On June 1, Trump ordered the DOE to "take immediate steps to help financially troubled coal and nuclear power plants." This despite the FERC conclusion that there is no risk from utilities retiring their dirtiest and most expensive plants, and this despite the DOE itself determining that the grid was more reliable than ever as it adds renewables.

The result of this is that utilities will be forced to retain older, unprofitable power plants, rather than switch to cheaper alternatives. An economic study from the Brattle group has estimated that this will add between $160 and $275 a year to homeowner's energy bills. The FERC estimates that for some families in areas with a lot of coal power it could be as high as $500 a year.

So now you know who to thank for higher energy bills this summer.