TheAnvil 0 #26 August 1, 2003 Quote And your so smart? That would be 'you're'Quote while the left and right play footsies. The big money gets what they want and leave you guys arguing over the scraps what a hoot. Who exactly is big money? Are they big oil? All corporations? And exactly what scraps are you talking about? Quote Oh and there is some truth to both left and right stereotypes. Really? Perhaps you could help me find that truth. Name one Republican or Libertarian that judges anyone by their race or supports programs that do the same. I've been looking and can't find one. Or a misogynist. Or one who hates the poor. One who wants those who earn money to actually keep more of it? Well....if you associate that with a love of the rich, I guess every republican and libertarian could be stereotyped as such. Beers to all, and Sebazz for CA GOVERNOR! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #27 August 1, 2003 Well, the truth be told, I hate the poor. Their gifts really suck. So, I might have contributed to that stereotype. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malfunction 0 #28 August 1, 2003 QuoteWell, the truth be told, I hate the poor. Their gifts really suck. So, I might have contributed to that stereotype YEAH! And they keep wanting the rich to donate money, but never want to pay it back! Wait, I just described myself... $hit! I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #29 August 1, 2003 Damn you! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #30 August 1, 2003 QuoteDamn you! I can't help it. What am I going to do with an empty box of Lucky Charms as a birthday gift? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #31 August 1, 2003 Cut out Lucky's picture and post it in your window of course! Then take the remainder and shove it down the dude's throat. SEBAZZ FOR CA GOVERNOR!!!! TheAnvil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #32 August 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteDamn you! I can't help it. What am I going to do with an empty box of Lucky Charms as a birthday gift? Take it back and ask for a refil. So are you actually poor if Skydiving is the cause of your poorness... Because I make plenty, I just spend it all buying jump tickets Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Snowflake 0 #33 August 1, 2003 QuoteThat would be 'you're' Crap now your comparing me to GWB QuoteWho exactly is big money? Are they big oil? All corporations? And exactly what scraps are you talking about? Enron for for one. Ask Enron employees if they understand what scraps are. The sad thing is that the crooks had full support of some of the top officials in this country until they got caught. I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with money and lots of it. QuoteReally? Perhaps you could help me find that truth. Name one Republican or Libertarian that judges anyone by their race or supports programs that do the same. Trent Lott for one, and while I don't see them creating racist programs(whatever dude). I don't see them doing all that much to stop the racisim that still exists or maybe I'm confused as to why I have to be searched for handgranades on a normal traffic stop. I also bet on some of the older southern republicans I could go find where they supported racist programs in the past. Did they have a big change of heart...... I think you missed my point. You wanna be on the right go ahead. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying that both sides are so polarized and argue about a lot of trivial shit until an Enron or a S&L scandal happens, or maybe I'm jealous that my world isn't black and white like yours. Like I said the left and the right are a nice distraction. Both sides in the middle have some good ideas but the farther out you go the more circus freak you get on both sides, and I trust neither of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #34 August 1, 2003 QuoteGUNS don't kill kittens ... I kill kittens This is wonderfull.... Brilliant. Fucking brilliant"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #35 August 1, 2003 QuoteThe Ten-Point Elder Plan 1.Abolish the IRS-Pass a National Sales Tax- Also known as "Let's Make Tax Lawyers and Lobbyists an Endangered Species Act." A simplified tax code gives lobbyists little to lobby about. A low tax rate spurs people to work harder without resorting to schemes to "shelter" income. At the turn of the century, governement took about 10 percent of the national income. Now, it takes nearly 40 percent. Low taxes means higher productivity and greater job creation. Let's welcome any move to reduce our tax burden, whatever form it takes. 2.Reduce Government by 80 percent Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. And what exactly does the Department of Commerce do? Do we need the Small Business Administration? Amtrak? The Tennessee Valley Authority? Department of Education? Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities. They have become sewers of crime and drugs. The government, an absentee landlord, couldn't care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. 3.End Welfare, Entitlements, and Special Privileges Welfare for the poor works out to a national average of $12,000 to $13,000 a year (cash and non-cash) per recipient. Why work at minimum wage? Why worry about impregnating someone when the government shields you from financial responsibility? But welfare for the non-poor, or entitlements, are five times as bad. This includes Social Security (the average recipient has put in fifteen cents for every dollar he or she takes out), Medicare, tuition tax credits, farm and dairy subsideis, tobacco subsidies, as well as governemtn control of airports and utilities. 4.Abolish the Minimum Wage A low-paying job remains the entry point for those with few marketable skills. The minimum wage hurts the so-called hard-core unemployable bu forcing an employer to pay more than the fair value of labor. Every time the government raises the minimum wage, thousands of entry-level jobs get destroyed. 5.Legalize Drugs Legalization does not mean approval. America spends at least $20 billion a year to fight a losing battle against drugs. (Research by William F. Buckley places Amerca's direct and indirect costs of this "war" at more than $200 billion a year.) Experts say that worldwide, the annual drug trade may be as high as $500 billion! "Just say no" ain't gonna stop that. The drug trade provides an economic incentive for children and teens to drop out of school and earn fast money. It accounts for 50 percent of all street crimes and perhaps 30 percent of the prison population. Tax drugs, and use the money for drug treatment and additional police protection. Drug legalization would free up prison spaces, vacancies that could be used to lock up violent criminals. What about the harm to society? Drug abuse would have to increase well over fivefold to match the deaths caused by cigarette smoking (alledgedly 400,000 a year). 6. Take Government Out of Education Before the mid 1800s, elementary and secondary education (except for slaves) was largely parent financed. Today, taxpayers spend more than $6,000 a year per student, more than virtually any other country, including Japan. With what result? Poor tast scores, high dropout rate, kids incapable of filling out emplyment applications. Why can't the private sector assume the responsibilities? Let's cheer anything, including vouchers, that takes in this direction. 7. Drop the Davis-Bacon Act This little-known act compels contractors bidding on government jobs to pay union wages. This cuts out competent, non-union workers willing to work for less. This hurts the minorities, many of whom were for years discriminated by unions. 8. Eliminate Corporate Taxes The government taxes profit and re-taxes the dividends, taking money otherwise used to reduce prices, pay higher dividends, pay higher salaries, or invest in research and development. More corporate investment mean more jobs. 9. Charity from People-Not Government During the 1980s, the "decade of greed," charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent! Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. but people wan their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust. 10. End Protectionism How many people know that Japanese trucks and minivans cost $2,000 more due to import tariffs? Government-mandated "price supports" force consumers to pay more for milk. Gobernment goodies for the tobacco and sugar industries stiff consumers. Congress imposes a mind-boggling array of rules and regulations to protect declining, inefficient businesses, whike taking money away from bew ones. Our government gets bigger and bigger, and spends more and more of our money. This destroys the incentive of the hard-working, while creating a class of people dependant on government, many of whom could become productive, contributing members of our society. So-called liberals no longer demand equal rights, but equal results. Thus the call for affimative action, set-asides, and race and gender-biased schemes to "level the playing field." Discrimination as an antidote to discrimination. The question is not whether we should help those who, through no fault of their own, cannot cope. the question is how should we help. The libertarian-minded believe that individuals can and will help other individuals with more efficiency and compassion than can the government. But how do you expect people to be generous when the government already takes 40percent of the earnings of a typical middlewage earner? It isn't necessary that you be in perfect agreement with this plan. Alert, engaged minds will never be in 100 percent agreement. But I'm willing to bet that you agree with my philosphy more than with either the Democratic or the Republican Party. We can agree that a good government is a small one and that government's most important function is to protect its citizens. One look at both the tax and crime rates tells us that the government has failed in its most essential responsibility. Incumbent politicians obviously don't get it. Let's clean 'em out and elect those who do. This is an excerpt from a book titled "THE TEN THINGS YOU CAN'T SAY IN AMERICA" written by a Libertarian by the name of Larry Elder. Copyright 2000.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FliegendeWolf 0 #36 August 1, 2003 Thanks! Or are you being sarcastic? BTW, that's been my signature for about a month now and your (thanks GWB ) the first person who's commented on it. A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #37 August 1, 2003 No, I like it. Kitty wanna go for a ride in the microwave?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #38 August 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteThere is evil afoot and it's starting at the top and working it's way down. This is what disturbs me most about liberals. You made some good points, but then you linked the right's beliefs with "evil." That dilutes what "evil" really is, like rape, murder, genocide, etc. But who sez I'm a liberal ? I'm just totally disillusioned. Liberties can be stolen by either the right or the left. Our liberties today, the ones I'm concerned about, are being stolen by a president who stole his own election and by an Attorney General who lost an election to a dead man (Now there's something to put on his resume...). Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #39 August 1, 2003 As I said, you made good points. I did not vote for GWB. I stand proudly against the actions of the current attorney general, as I am libertarian. But I refuse to describe them as "evil." If lessens the gravity of the word to describe them as such. Adn, unfortunately, liberals (and not the classical liberal of Adam Smith, as I describe myself) are typically those who will give names to those with whom they disagree. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #40 August 1, 2003 QuoteOur liberties today, the ones I'm concerned about, are being stolen by a president who stole his own election Here it comes again. The President stole the election, the Supreme Court gave it to him, his brother gave it him....blah, blah, blah. If you can name one count of the Florida ballots that he did not win, including the ones done by the independent media than you statement has some merit. Otherwise it is pure crap. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #41 August 1, 2003 And one more thing about "stole the election." The Florida Supreme Court re-wrote a statute to help out Gore. Under separation of powers, this is unacceptible. The US Supreme Court thought so, too. That's why it was a 7-2 decision in the US Supreme that the Florida Court overstepped its bounds. The disagreement was the remedy. Read the per curiam opinion and tell me who tried to "steal" an election. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,078 #42 August 1, 2003 Odd that they think that "cheap labor" is a bad thing. I'd rather have 90% employment with half the people making minimum wage than 50% employment with the 50% making more - but the other 50% making zero. I spent most of my teenage years making minumum wage, emptying trash cans and washing dishes. I'd hate to have some law that said I couldn't work for really cheap, because then I'd have been out of a job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,078 #43 August 1, 2003 >The Florida Supreme Court re-wrote a statute to help out Gore. > Under separation of powers, this is unacceptible. A good point, but under the Patriot Act the administrative branch now can perform many of the functions once reserved for the judiciary (including removing basic civil rights from any citizen or resident) so it's not that valid any more. We no longer have that separation of powers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 226 #44 August 1, 2003 hurumph! That is so rediculous that it is closer to facetiousness than the truth.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #45 August 1, 2003 QuoteYup ~ They all are lying cheating schemeing stealing dirty rotten scumbags. Would you like to know how I really feel? You're being way too nice. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #46 August 1, 2003 Patriot Act? The Act is as sinister as its name sounds.... See my above comments about our current atty general. Out of extreme times comes extreme laws. I hope the Supreme Court takes care of this one, too. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #47 August 2, 2003 Quote Crap now your comparing me to GWB No, I'm correcting your grammar. Quote Enron for for one. Ask Enron employees if they understand what scraps are. The sad thing is that the crooks had full support of some of the top officials in this country until they got caught. I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with money and lots of it. Enron 'for one' what? Granted, Ken Lay DID spend the night in the Lincoln Bedroom no fewer than 14 times when El Jefe Clintonista was President, but exactly what the hell are you referring to? Do you actually have sympathy for anyone who put all of their retirement savings into one company? My God man! I thought diversification was the hallmark of the left! Quote Trent Lott for one, and while I don't see them creating racist programs(whatever dude). I don't see them doing all that much to stop the racisim that still exists or maybe I'm confused as to why I have to be searched for handgranades on a normal traffic stop. For your own sake, I'm going to assume you have a three digit IQ - you seem quite bright - and also assume you are NOT referring to the infamous Strom Thurmond b-day party remark when you refer to Trent Lott as a racist. Looking forward to you proving this. FYI, I hate Trent and consider him one of the worst politicians in DC today. But much less so than Teddy K. Quote I also bet on some of the older southern republicans I could go find where they supported racist programs in the past. Did they have a big change of heart...... Ohhhhhhhh......did you open a can here. I AM a Southerner and resent your stereotypes. I do not share them. The lie that white southerners are generally racist does not work on me. Those who hide behind that lie are either ignorant of the facts or cowards. What program do republicans support that judges people by their race? Quote I think you missed my point. You wanna be on the right go ahead. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying that both sides are so polarized and argue about a lot of trivial shit until an Enron or a S&L scandal happens, or maybe I'm jealous that my world isn't black and white like yours. I'm libertarian. My world isn't black and white - it's multicolored. Quote Like I said the left and the right are a nice distraction. Both sides in the middle have some good ideas but the farther out you go the more circus freak you get on both sides, and I trust neither of them. Hmmm....if the left actually had a middle capable of arguing without depending on lies, I might actually agree with this. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,078 #48 August 2, 2003 >Hmmm....if the left actually had a middle capable of arguing without >depending on lies, I might actually agree with this. Depends how you define "the left." I could define the right as John Poindexter, Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, and then claim that republicans are all a bunch of sensationalist, greedy liars. I could lump the Army of God under that umbrella as well (they are quite conservative) and claim that republicans support murder as well. But that would be silly, since the party is a lot larger than that, and the Army of God is a lunatic fringe group. There are a lot of centrist democrats just as there are a lot of centrist republicans. In fact, these people represent the majority of politicians; it's just the extreme examples (like ol Strom and that Kennedy) that get all the news. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #49 August 2, 2003 Heavens! Talk about keeping the brain in first-gear and revving the shit out of it trying to go 60... Political ideology aside (many of you know where I am in the political spectrum), I think too many of us give too much credit to the scandalous nature of politicians, etc. We all know that the bigger a body of people gets in a single area (mobs, audiences, ad infinitum) the sharper the collective intelligence drops in the process. We all wonder how anything gets done at all. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the legislation and ideas that pass through our local, state and federal bodies get shot down and never see the light of day, and that's a good thing. However, major initiatives, however flawed, have served this country as a whole, very well. They have done so because of the overall handsoff position of Washington DC (that's what being a Federal Republic is all about). Overall, the progress we have made, as a country, especially over the past 100 years, has been due largely, in my opinion, to a lack of ultra-intrusive positions by the government. All that having been said, yes, I think most of the governmental bodies in our country could benefit from a major housecleaning, but even if that were to happen, I wouldn't start at the federal level, I would start at the local and county municipality level. The feds get the occasional "big" ticket scandal crap that's akin to winning the lottery. But the shit that slides around in our own back yards is far more disturbing, if not as "big and sexy" as WorldCom style scandal. So, in summary, ideology aside, I'm of the opinion that just about everything shakes out in the end. There is no big conspiracy on either side of the aisle. The Council of Foreign Relations is not defining the moves of every country on earth. None of these people has that kind of power. ...if only everyone would just listen to me instead... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SublimeBreeze 0 #50 August 2, 2003 Quote But seriously, you know that there are whackos on either side of the fence, as do Muenkel and TheAnvil. You guys know better than to treat this article as the average liberal voice. So true! Both sides are corrupt and horribly dishonest. There is some truth to the article. You guys realize bush is trying to get rid of overtime pay? I mean cmon! if that deosn't just speak to you guys then I dont know what would. I realize he is an extremist and I think that is who the article is speaking of, But in the end both sides are fucked, as well as americans! 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BlueEyedMonster 0 #32 August 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteDamn you! I can't help it. What am I going to do with an empty box of Lucky Charms as a birthday gift? Take it back and ask for a refil. So are you actually poor if Skydiving is the cause of your poorness... Because I make plenty, I just spend it all buying jump tickets Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #33 August 1, 2003 QuoteThat would be 'you're' Crap now your comparing me to GWB QuoteWho exactly is big money? Are they big oil? All corporations? And exactly what scraps are you talking about? Enron for for one. Ask Enron employees if they understand what scraps are. The sad thing is that the crooks had full support of some of the top officials in this country until they got caught. I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with money and lots of it. QuoteReally? Perhaps you could help me find that truth. Name one Republican or Libertarian that judges anyone by their race or supports programs that do the same. Trent Lott for one, and while I don't see them creating racist programs(whatever dude). I don't see them doing all that much to stop the racisim that still exists or maybe I'm confused as to why I have to be searched for handgranades on a normal traffic stop. I also bet on some of the older southern republicans I could go find where they supported racist programs in the past. Did they have a big change of heart...... I think you missed my point. You wanna be on the right go ahead. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying that both sides are so polarized and argue about a lot of trivial shit until an Enron or a S&L scandal happens, or maybe I'm jealous that my world isn't black and white like yours. Like I said the left and the right are a nice distraction. Both sides in the middle have some good ideas but the farther out you go the more circus freak you get on both sides, and I trust neither of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #34 August 1, 2003 QuoteGUNS don't kill kittens ... I kill kittens This is wonderfull.... Brilliant. Fucking brilliant"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #35 August 1, 2003 QuoteThe Ten-Point Elder Plan 1.Abolish the IRS-Pass a National Sales Tax- Also known as "Let's Make Tax Lawyers and Lobbyists an Endangered Species Act." A simplified tax code gives lobbyists little to lobby about. A low tax rate spurs people to work harder without resorting to schemes to "shelter" income. At the turn of the century, governement took about 10 percent of the national income. Now, it takes nearly 40 percent. Low taxes means higher productivity and greater job creation. Let's welcome any move to reduce our tax burden, whatever form it takes. 2.Reduce Government by 80 percent Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. And what exactly does the Department of Commerce do? Do we need the Small Business Administration? Amtrak? The Tennessee Valley Authority? Department of Education? Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities. They have become sewers of crime and drugs. The government, an absentee landlord, couldn't care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. 3.End Welfare, Entitlements, and Special Privileges Welfare for the poor works out to a national average of $12,000 to $13,000 a year (cash and non-cash) per recipient. Why work at minimum wage? Why worry about impregnating someone when the government shields you from financial responsibility? But welfare for the non-poor, or entitlements, are five times as bad. This includes Social Security (the average recipient has put in fifteen cents for every dollar he or she takes out), Medicare, tuition tax credits, farm and dairy subsideis, tobacco subsidies, as well as governemtn control of airports and utilities. 4.Abolish the Minimum Wage A low-paying job remains the entry point for those with few marketable skills. The minimum wage hurts the so-called hard-core unemployable bu forcing an employer to pay more than the fair value of labor. Every time the government raises the minimum wage, thousands of entry-level jobs get destroyed. 5.Legalize Drugs Legalization does not mean approval. America spends at least $20 billion a year to fight a losing battle against drugs. (Research by William F. Buckley places Amerca's direct and indirect costs of this "war" at more than $200 billion a year.) Experts say that worldwide, the annual drug trade may be as high as $500 billion! "Just say no" ain't gonna stop that. The drug trade provides an economic incentive for children and teens to drop out of school and earn fast money. It accounts for 50 percent of all street crimes and perhaps 30 percent of the prison population. Tax drugs, and use the money for drug treatment and additional police protection. Drug legalization would free up prison spaces, vacancies that could be used to lock up violent criminals. What about the harm to society? Drug abuse would have to increase well over fivefold to match the deaths caused by cigarette smoking (alledgedly 400,000 a year). 6. Take Government Out of Education Before the mid 1800s, elementary and secondary education (except for slaves) was largely parent financed. Today, taxpayers spend more than $6,000 a year per student, more than virtually any other country, including Japan. With what result? Poor tast scores, high dropout rate, kids incapable of filling out emplyment applications. Why can't the private sector assume the responsibilities? Let's cheer anything, including vouchers, that takes in this direction. 7. Drop the Davis-Bacon Act This little-known act compels contractors bidding on government jobs to pay union wages. This cuts out competent, non-union workers willing to work for less. This hurts the minorities, many of whom were for years discriminated by unions. 8. Eliminate Corporate Taxes The government taxes profit and re-taxes the dividends, taking money otherwise used to reduce prices, pay higher dividends, pay higher salaries, or invest in research and development. More corporate investment mean more jobs. 9. Charity from People-Not Government During the 1980s, the "decade of greed," charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent! Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. but people wan their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust. 10. End Protectionism How many people know that Japanese trucks and minivans cost $2,000 more due to import tariffs? Government-mandated "price supports" force consumers to pay more for milk. Gobernment goodies for the tobacco and sugar industries stiff consumers. Congress imposes a mind-boggling array of rules and regulations to protect declining, inefficient businesses, whike taking money away from bew ones. Our government gets bigger and bigger, and spends more and more of our money. This destroys the incentive of the hard-working, while creating a class of people dependant on government, many of whom could become productive, contributing members of our society. So-called liberals no longer demand equal rights, but equal results. Thus the call for affimative action, set-asides, and race and gender-biased schemes to "level the playing field." Discrimination as an antidote to discrimination. The question is not whether we should help those who, through no fault of their own, cannot cope. the question is how should we help. The libertarian-minded believe that individuals can and will help other individuals with more efficiency and compassion than can the government. But how do you expect people to be generous when the government already takes 40percent of the earnings of a typical middlewage earner? It isn't necessary that you be in perfect agreement with this plan. Alert, engaged minds will never be in 100 percent agreement. But I'm willing to bet that you agree with my philosphy more than with either the Democratic or the Republican Party. We can agree that a good government is a small one and that government's most important function is to protect its citizens. One look at both the tax and crime rates tells us that the government has failed in its most essential responsibility. Incumbent politicians obviously don't get it. Let's clean 'em out and elect those who do. This is an excerpt from a book titled "THE TEN THINGS YOU CAN'T SAY IN AMERICA" written by a Libertarian by the name of Larry Elder. Copyright 2000.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #36 August 1, 2003 Thanks! Or are you being sarcastic? BTW, that's been my signature for about a month now and your (thanks GWB ) the first person who's commented on it. A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 August 1, 2003 No, I like it. Kitty wanna go for a ride in the microwave?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #38 August 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteThere is evil afoot and it's starting at the top and working it's way down. This is what disturbs me most about liberals. You made some good points, but then you linked the right's beliefs with "evil." That dilutes what "evil" really is, like rape, murder, genocide, etc. But who sez I'm a liberal ? I'm just totally disillusioned. Liberties can be stolen by either the right or the left. Our liberties today, the ones I'm concerned about, are being stolen by a president who stole his own election and by an Attorney General who lost an election to a dead man (Now there's something to put on his resume...). Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #39 August 1, 2003 As I said, you made good points. I did not vote for GWB. I stand proudly against the actions of the current attorney general, as I am libertarian. But I refuse to describe them as "evil." If lessens the gravity of the word to describe them as such. Adn, unfortunately, liberals (and not the classical liberal of Adam Smith, as I describe myself) are typically those who will give names to those with whom they disagree. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #40 August 1, 2003 QuoteOur liberties today, the ones I'm concerned about, are being stolen by a president who stole his own election Here it comes again. The President stole the election, the Supreme Court gave it to him, his brother gave it him....blah, blah, blah. If you can name one count of the Florida ballots that he did not win, including the ones done by the independent media than you statement has some merit. Otherwise it is pure crap. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #41 August 1, 2003 And one more thing about "stole the election." The Florida Supreme Court re-wrote a statute to help out Gore. Under separation of powers, this is unacceptible. The US Supreme Court thought so, too. That's why it was a 7-2 decision in the US Supreme that the Florida Court overstepped its bounds. The disagreement was the remedy. Read the per curiam opinion and tell me who tried to "steal" an election. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #42 August 1, 2003 Odd that they think that "cheap labor" is a bad thing. I'd rather have 90% employment with half the people making minimum wage than 50% employment with the 50% making more - but the other 50% making zero. I spent most of my teenage years making minumum wage, emptying trash cans and washing dishes. I'd hate to have some law that said I couldn't work for really cheap, because then I'd have been out of a job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #43 August 1, 2003 >The Florida Supreme Court re-wrote a statute to help out Gore. > Under separation of powers, this is unacceptible. A good point, but under the Patriot Act the administrative branch now can perform many of the functions once reserved for the judiciary (including removing basic civil rights from any citizen or resident) so it's not that valid any more. We no longer have that separation of powers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #44 August 1, 2003 hurumph! That is so rediculous that it is closer to facetiousness than the truth.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #45 August 1, 2003 QuoteYup ~ They all are lying cheating schemeing stealing dirty rotten scumbags. Would you like to know how I really feel? You're being way too nice. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #46 August 1, 2003 Patriot Act? The Act is as sinister as its name sounds.... See my above comments about our current atty general. Out of extreme times comes extreme laws. I hope the Supreme Court takes care of this one, too. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #47 August 2, 2003 Quote Crap now your comparing me to GWB No, I'm correcting your grammar. Quote Enron for for one. Ask Enron employees if they understand what scraps are. The sad thing is that the crooks had full support of some of the top officials in this country until they got caught. I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with money and lots of it. Enron 'for one' what? Granted, Ken Lay DID spend the night in the Lincoln Bedroom no fewer than 14 times when El Jefe Clintonista was President, but exactly what the hell are you referring to? Do you actually have sympathy for anyone who put all of their retirement savings into one company? My God man! I thought diversification was the hallmark of the left! Quote Trent Lott for one, and while I don't see them creating racist programs(whatever dude). I don't see them doing all that much to stop the racisim that still exists or maybe I'm confused as to why I have to be searched for handgranades on a normal traffic stop. For your own sake, I'm going to assume you have a three digit IQ - you seem quite bright - and also assume you are NOT referring to the infamous Strom Thurmond b-day party remark when you refer to Trent Lott as a racist. Looking forward to you proving this. FYI, I hate Trent and consider him one of the worst politicians in DC today. But much less so than Teddy K. Quote I also bet on some of the older southern republicans I could go find where they supported racist programs in the past. Did they have a big change of heart...... Ohhhhhhhh......did you open a can here. I AM a Southerner and resent your stereotypes. I do not share them. The lie that white southerners are generally racist does not work on me. Those who hide behind that lie are either ignorant of the facts or cowards. What program do republicans support that judges people by their race? Quote I think you missed my point. You wanna be on the right go ahead. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying that both sides are so polarized and argue about a lot of trivial shit until an Enron or a S&L scandal happens, or maybe I'm jealous that my world isn't black and white like yours. I'm libertarian. My world isn't black and white - it's multicolored. Quote Like I said the left and the right are a nice distraction. Both sides in the middle have some good ideas but the farther out you go the more circus freak you get on both sides, and I trust neither of them. Hmmm....if the left actually had a middle capable of arguing without depending on lies, I might actually agree with this. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #48 August 2, 2003 >Hmmm....if the left actually had a middle capable of arguing without >depending on lies, I might actually agree with this. Depends how you define "the left." I could define the right as John Poindexter, Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, and then claim that republicans are all a bunch of sensationalist, greedy liars. I could lump the Army of God under that umbrella as well (they are quite conservative) and claim that republicans support murder as well. But that would be silly, since the party is a lot larger than that, and the Army of God is a lunatic fringe group. There are a lot of centrist democrats just as there are a lot of centrist republicans. In fact, these people represent the majority of politicians; it's just the extreme examples (like ol Strom and that Kennedy) that get all the news. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #49 August 2, 2003 Heavens! Talk about keeping the brain in first-gear and revving the shit out of it trying to go 60... Political ideology aside (many of you know where I am in the political spectrum), I think too many of us give too much credit to the scandalous nature of politicians, etc. We all know that the bigger a body of people gets in a single area (mobs, audiences, ad infinitum) the sharper the collective intelligence drops in the process. We all wonder how anything gets done at all. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the legislation and ideas that pass through our local, state and federal bodies get shot down and never see the light of day, and that's a good thing. However, major initiatives, however flawed, have served this country as a whole, very well. They have done so because of the overall handsoff position of Washington DC (that's what being a Federal Republic is all about). Overall, the progress we have made, as a country, especially over the past 100 years, has been due largely, in my opinion, to a lack of ultra-intrusive positions by the government. All that having been said, yes, I think most of the governmental bodies in our country could benefit from a major housecleaning, but even if that were to happen, I wouldn't start at the federal level, I would start at the local and county municipality level. The feds get the occasional "big" ticket scandal crap that's akin to winning the lottery. But the shit that slides around in our own back yards is far more disturbing, if not as "big and sexy" as WorldCom style scandal. So, in summary, ideology aside, I'm of the opinion that just about everything shakes out in the end. There is no big conspiracy on either side of the aisle. The Council of Foreign Relations is not defining the moves of every country on earth. None of these people has that kind of power. ...if only everyone would just listen to me instead... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SublimeBreeze 0 #50 August 2, 2003 Quote But seriously, you know that there are whackos on either side of the fence, as do Muenkel and TheAnvil. You guys know better than to treat this article as the average liberal voice. So true! Both sides are corrupt and horribly dishonest. There is some truth to the article. You guys realize bush is trying to get rid of overtime pay? I mean cmon! if that deosn't just speak to you guys then I dont know what would. I realize he is an extremist and I think that is who the article is speaking of, But in the end both sides are fucked, as well as americans! Sean Sean In Thailand Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
