New Crossfire Bulletin

[cobaltdan 0]

as i read the release what i get is that 'good' x-fires with spectra will become 'bad' xfires as the lines wear and that the canopy is so sensitive that the normal dimensional shift on spectra line could make the canopy unstable.
i have several issues with this:
1-i do not favor vectran. reason being that most jumpers do not carefully, routinely inspect their lines. nor do they accurately keep track of the # of jumps on those lines and religiously change them. on a soft opening canopy, there is the real possibility of when lines break, it will not be on opening but on a radical turn. if this if your final hook or anything below cutaway altitude you are in serious trouble !
2-canopies are flexible membrane structures. in addition to the lines changing specs with use, so does the fabric and tapes. the airfoil and planform design and other design variables can not be 'borderline' safe. they must safely allow for variences in sewing, line, fabric, and tape tensions.
3-least of my concerns would be economical...ie. who is going to pay for the reline. as well as the now higher cost of maintainence, ie. vectran lines will probably have to be religiously replaced twice as often as spectra.
4-icarus stated that the canopies are out of tollerence, but have not publically said word one as to what tollerences are off. every construction specification on a canopy can be measured. if this is true then why has icarus not stated exactly what has been constructed out of spec, what the factory specified dimensions are, and what is the acceptable tollerence on those specifications.
typical canopy construction involves the cutting of fabric pannels on a hot knife or laser plotter from a computer cad file. this is dead accurate, additionally match marks are cut or marked in ink during this plotting process. when a seamstress sews the canopy together the match marks are overlaid.
if a canopy was constructred out of tollerence. either the computer files were incorrect and therefore the fabric pannels cut out reflecting this. (as the computer files do not magically change, they are what was designed, i would call this a design flaw), or the cutting machine is messed up and one axis is out of scale from the other (doubtful, this is a mechanical function, ie. x steps of the motor creates x" linear movement, this is preset and never changes), or it was sewn incorectly. typical problems in sewing are mainly being sloppy ie. not aligning the match marks or not keeping even tension on seams. i believe precision uses visible ink for the match marks (atair uses small holes).
you can not state something is out of tollerance without specifing, what, its specified dimension and acceptable tollerence. until that this statement is simply BS.
sincerely,
dan

[SBS 0]

as i read the release what i get is that 'good' x-fires with spectra will become 'bad' xfires as the lines
wear and that the canopy is so sensitive that the normal dimensional shift on spectra line could make
the canopy unstable.
i have several issues with this:
1-i do not favor vectran. reason being that most jumpers do not carefully, routinely inspect their lines.
nor do they accurately keep track of the # of jumps on those lines and religiously change them. on a
soft opening canopy, there is the real possibility of when lines break, it will not be on opening but on a
radical turn. if this if your final hook or anything below cutaway altitude you are in serious trouble !
So, what I get from your statement about "most people don't..." is that when someone makes a decision to jump a high performance canopy, they need not be held responsible for the proper upkeep of said canopy. That's just like squeezing jumps out of a wearing closing loop...saying, "I can get one more...I can get one more", instead of just doing the responsible thing and replacing the loop. So, when this guy has a premature deployment and a horseshoe, who's responsible? There are many, many things that can happen during a high performance landing, all of which need to be addressed and prevented as much as possible by the person who has chosen to jump a canopy.
2-canopies are flexible membrane structures. in addition to the lines changing specs with use, so does
the fabric and tapes. the airfoil and planform design and other design variables can not be 'borderline'
safe. they must safely allow for variences in sewing, line, fabric, and tape tensions.
Sewing, line lengths, fabric, and tape are all variences, like you said, that cannot be helped. It is a fact that there may be a varience from time to time in how a canopy is sewn, where a line is cut and sewn, the uniformity of the tape tensions, etc. The stretching and shrinking of lines is something that can be addressed, and can be prevented. It's a variable that does not have to be thrown into the mix. I don't like vectran, personally, but being that I have chosen to jump this canopy, and will probably jump an Extreme or Velocity in the future, I view it as a way to prevent both threatening and none threatening problems that one may experience with the canopy, and I have accepted that along with the responsibility of maintaining it.
3-least of my concerns would be economical...ie. who is going to pay for the reline. as well as the now
higher cost of maintainence, ie. vectran lines will probably have to be religiously replaced twice as often
as spectra.
Actually, if you replace the steering lines every couple hundred jumps or so, you should replace the entire line set around the same time with either line, if when jumping spectra, you want a canopy that is in proper trim. That is what I have experienced, at least. Basically, you are looking at $50-$100 more per 400 jumps or so, which is a price that I am willing to pay to jump this canopy.
4-icarus stated that the canopies are out of tollerence, but have not publically said word one as to
what tollerences are off. every construction specification on a canopy can be measured. if this is true
then why has icarus not stated exactly what has been constructed out of spec, what the factory
specified dimensions are, and what is the acceptable tollerence on those specifications.
What would we do with that information? What would Joe Jumper do if he were to know exactly where the tolerances were off? Also, if they were to know exactly where they were off, then they wouldn't still be researching the problem, would they? I equate this to the Vengeance issue that PD has at times, when a canopy comes out of their factory, nothing has changed in the design, cutting, etc. of the canopy, but a certain percentage are known as hard openers, which they cannot explain.
typical canopy construction involves the cutting of fabric pannels on a hot knife or laser plotter from a
computer cad file. this is dead accurate, additionally match marks are cut or marked in ink during this
plotting process. when a seamstress sews the canopy together the match marks are overlaid.
if a canopy was constructred out of tollerence. either the computer files were incorrect and therefore
the fabric pannels cut out reflecting this. (as the computer files do not magically change, they are what
was designed, i would call this a design flaw), or the cutting machine is messed up and one axis is out
of scale from the other (doubtful, this is a mechanical function, ie. x steps of the motor creates x" linear
movement, this is preset and never changes), or it was sewn incorectly. typical problems in sewing are
mainly being sloppy ie. not aligning the match marks or not keeping even tension on seams. i believe
precision uses visible ink for the match marks (atair uses small holes).
Given the fact that this is only on a certain number of canopies, that are seemingly not from multiple manufacturers, it sounds to me like it is not a fault in the design of the canopy, rather a mistake that was made somewhere along the line in the manufacture of a number of canopies. This is all technical information that nobody has except for Icarus and its manufacturers that we really can't comment or speculate on.
you can not state something is out of tollerance without specifing, what, its specified dimension and
acceptable tollerence. until that this statement is simply BS.
Pretty bold...you're saying that Icarus is being dishonest? What reason do they have to do that? As a canopy company yourself, would you think that it would be beneficial to lie to the public when there is a definite problem with your canopy? If it were a design flaw, would you want to leave 1000 canopies on the market and pretend that they are ok, just waiting for one to collapse and/or take a life? I just don't see where this would be beneficial to a company who plans on being around for more than just a few more months.
I ask again (rhetorically):
1) what would Joe Jumper do with that information?
and
2) if they had that information, why would they still be test jumping the canopies in relation to these anomolies?
I'm going to refrain from commenting any more, unless someone asks a specific question that is directly to me, or has a quick answer, if you don't mind. I will continue to stand strong in my beliefs, as will you, and neither of us have all the information. I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen in the near future with this situation.
Blue Skies,
Steve

[freeflir29 0]

"as i read the release what i get is that 'good' x-fires with spectra will become 'bad' xfires as the lines
wear and that the canopy is so sensitive that the normal dimensional shift on spectra line could make
the canopy unstable."
Interesting stuff. Does anyone think that maybe we have hit a plateau in canopy design? Maybe that the current designs are too advanced for the construction materials available. Seems pretty close to what has happened over the years with aircraft manufacture. Thoughts from the P-nut gallery?
"The sky resembles a back lit canopy...with holes punched through it"- Incubus
Clay

[Aviatrr 0]

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I had a new Crossfire on order. I maintained confidence through the fatality at the Ranch and the first bulletin. But Mike's story followed by the second bulletin was just too much. I've now lost confidence in the product and cancelled my order.

I, personally, did not lose my confidence after my canopy collapsed......but I CERTAINLY did lose it after I was told that my canopy was "on the list to be issued today" AFTER it collapsed.. I lost all confidence in Icarus at that point, and that's when I decided to get my money back for the canopy and purchase something else.. Just like you - I may decide to go back to Icarus at some point, but not until they prove themselves to me in the future..

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Or I might get a Cobalt.

I am now waiting on a Cobalt demo canopy.. I wanted a 135, but the wait on the 135 is a while, and the 150 should be shipped to me on Monday - so I decided to go with the 150, at least for a demo.. I'll let ya know what I think after I demo it..
Mike