Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Intentional downwind landings (was: Monarch)

[billvon 3,123]

>I'll opt to land out and into the wind rather then follow someone downwind in 0-5 . . .

If you jump long enough you will land downwind. If you can't land a canopy in a slight downwind (say, below 5 knots) then the canopy is too small for you. Best way to find out if that's the case is try it under good conditions, so you don't have to do it for the first time in bad conditions. That's how people get injured and killed.

(This is a split off a thread in Gear and Rigging.)

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Quote

>I'll opt to land out and into the wind rather then follow someone downwind in 0-5 . . .

If you jump long enough you will land downwind. If you can't land a canopy in a slight downwind (say, below 5 knots) then the canopy is too small for you. Best way to find out if that's the case is try it under good conditions, so you don't have to do it for the first time in bad conditions. That's how people get injured and killed.

(This is a split off a thread in Gear and Rigging.)

Bill, please...

I didn't say I couldn't land my canopy downwind in 0-5... did it earlier today in fact when the wind shifted short final, planed it out, held it off and ran it out. QED

I didn't say it was a bad idea to know how to land one downwind.

I said that I don't see the point of going out and doing intentional downwinds and that I opt not to.

If you want to, fine.

IMO, its not the wisest thing for low-time jumpers to go do on purpose... or be advised to go do... you can coach them on how to deal with it, without actually putting them in that situation; isn't that what we do teaching students how to deal with a Mal during FJC... we never actually make them go jump a canopy that that will have a function? You've got a lot of good things to say, but remember, we've got 1000s of jumps and even like Sparky says, we're not so good as to never die doing this, we're probably less apt to mis-handle any given situation, its called experience.

... I'm gonna go get a beer.

[JeepDiver 0]

Lets see, after looking in my logbook. It was jump 58 at Zhills the morning of 04-09-06 when I did my first downwind landing on purpose. Winds were at the most 5-6 mph.

I believe I got a talking to by someone afterwards who does not need to be mentioned. I liked it, it was fast. It took me a greater distance to stop than I thought it would. There was dew on the grass so I was able to make contact with my feet Fred Flintstone style. There was no more lift left in my canopy at the end of my flare. I timed the flare slightly ahead of making contact with the ground. Skidded it out for about 80 feet with grass and bits of mud going everywhere and had hoped for a final bit of lift in order to stand myself back up. It wasn't the case, my ass was as black as the grass and mud I landed in.

I doubt I coudly have ran it out. In fact there was no way I could have ran it out. I would have tumbled that way. If I would have felt myself tumbling I would have PLF'ed it. I didn't need to do that.

I was talking with a canopy coach about making it to a preplanned points in the the sky not by a straight line but by using an arcing pattern to get to a point, the arc can be shorter or longer than it needs to be to get to a point at altitude and is adjustable in flight. I try to avoid downwind landings. At this stage of the game I'd rather get from point A to B to C and have thought about it higher up so as not to cause myself problems down low.

I do not have many jumps as you all can see, I'm only posting what I did and know to date. I am open to education for myself as well as for others. I believe that was Bills point for expanding the thread in the first place so I've jumped in. I'm just a student learning every jump I make.

I saw a guy my first couple months in skydiving plant himself in a plowed field doing a downwind landing due to the softness of the ground. I've avoiding getting into a posistion to do them up untill the point I did this one. It felt right to try it at the time I did. I learned from it.

[billvon 3,123]

>I didn't say I couldn't land my canopy downwind in 0-5 . . .

Sorry, the "you" was the impersonal "you", as in people reading this thread.

>I said that I don't see the point of going out and doing intentional
>downwinds and that I opt not to.

That's fine; I just disagree. I think that people turning low to get back into the wind is one of the major causes of low-turn injuries, and knowing how to safely land downwind (and more importantly, knowing for sure you can do it) can help prevent such injuries.

>we never actually make them go jump a canopy that that will have a
> function?

Right. Nor do we make them land downwind, or flare turn, or flat turn. This definitely isn't something for someone right off student status to try. But once they have started to master canopy control it can be a very useful exercise.

>we're probably less apt to mis-handle any given situation, its called
>experience.

Agreed. Which is why I think more people should have that experience under good conditions before they need it in an emergency.

Keep in mind that all the stuff that's posted here are merely suggestions, and no one should follow suggestions they see here unless they have thought them through and have decided on their _own_ that it's a good idea. Since I have seen a lot of people, both here and in person, hurt themselves because they don't know how to fly their canopies well, often I harp on canopy control as a survival skill, and I recommend practice of those skills. At best I hope to get people thinking about the topic, and thinking about how to better educate themselves. If someone reads this and thinks "Hey, that sounds scary to me, I don't want _ever_ want to land downwind!" - well, at least they're thinking about it. Perhaps learning to flat turn would be a better answer for that person.

[popsjumper 2]

Bill, please give me your input on this:

With respect to higher-than-normal-speed landings (downwinders are a good example) with an eye towards the newer jumpers...

There comes a point in time where the landing speed is greater than run-out ability and high enough where a PLF is inadvisable. A case can be made for a slide-in. Please note that I never recommend a butt slide (picture tandem butt slide-ins) because of the impact shock to the tailbone and spine. I always recommend a "baseball" type slide-in (picture sliding in to 2nd base.)

We teach PLF in FJC and that's all well and good but I think we should also teach "baseball" slides, too. The difficulty is that learning this technique takes much more time and effort than simple PLFs. For those with baseball experience, it is simple but for those without, quite difficult and could be just as damaging as a tandem butt-slide if done improperly.

I think I may have answered my own question there but what is your opinion of teaching "baseball" slides to newbies...right at FJC, or later after gaining some degree of canopy control or entirely not at all?

Thanks in advance.

BTW...I do intentional downwinders in different wind conditions (when appropriate with respect to landing traffic) in order to practice handling them for sometime when I might actually need it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 3,123]

>We teach PLF in FJC and that's all well and good but I think we should also teach "baseball" slides, too.

I agree. I used to teach that at water training. It's very similar to a PLF - feet and knees together, knees cocked to one side. First points of contact are feet, calves, thighs then butt - but then you stop there and slide. So the setup is the same, which makes it easier to remember. The feet/knees together and in front is the important part.

[popsjumper 2]

That's not the "baseball"slide I was referring to but I could see how that might help if you take away the feet-first idea and substitute legs-bent and then outside-of-calf-first. The idea being to prevent feet, knees and heels digging in.

You didn't play baseball as a kid, did you?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Bill, fair enough.

[billvon 3,123]

>You didn't play baseball as a kid, did you?

Yeah, but I sucked.

[JeepDiver 0]

I guess I did good, good enough. Billvon won't answer, neither will anyone else. If I was 22 and a female I would have alot of other skydivers offering advice. At times I have a bad attitude because if I'm not talked to. I did good and that is what I'll assume. I read Billvons canopy control progression instructions posted on this website. I read Billvons advice about jumper seperation on jump run. I've read thousands of pages worth of information posted on this forum and given away freely from other posters. And I have impletmented them in real life.

Billvon posts a disclaimer and doesn't respond to the advice of his which I've followed that he has posted in the past. Does it even matter to anyone that the information has been on the coverpage of dropzone.com.

Billvon what was your point of expanding this thread???

Other than calling ZigZagMarguis out on what he had kept to himself as a personal opinion about downwind landings and how he felt they effected his life in a seperate thread to this one, what is the point otherwise? Please enlighten me?

Billvon I smoked in a downwind landing based on your advice at 58 jumps and enjoyed it. My ass was dirty, my rig was dirty and I pissed a few people off at Zhills. How shall I better do it next time, without killing myself?

[billvon 3,123]

Uh, what are you asking? Why I separated the thread from the thread in Gear+Rigging? Because it wasn't appropriate there. Why I think people should be able to land downwind? Because it will happen to them someday; being prepared for it is a good thing (IMO.)