Moral relativity

[normiss 891]

I would advise our foreign friends here to ignore most of that post.
We are NOT an angry country.
This is an international forum and your opinions and comments are certainly welcomed - this site isn't even American owned nor hosted for that matter.
I apologize to you for the portion of our population filled with anger and hatred, most of us DO welcome open discourse.
We wont attack, shut you down, insult, remove you as a social friend, nor block you on social platforms for simply having an opinion.

[RonD1120 62]

kallend

Once again, hypocrisy knows no national, state, county or city borders.

Claiming to admire one set of rules but not living by them is the very definition of hypocrisy. Billvon gave a perfect example in the first post of the thread. For another, take a look in mirror.

That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

normiss

I would advise our foreign friends here to ignore most of that post.
We are NOT an angry country.

What portion of my post did you accept?

Are you the only angry poster here?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 2,273]

Quote

That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law.

Yes Ron. You have always done a pretty good job of illustrating that Christianity imposes no moral code on you at all. All that matters is what Jesus can do for you.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 891]

None of it as it was all wrong.

I'm not an angry poster here.

Why are you so filled with hate for so many other humans and your own gods work?

[kallend 2,146]

RonD1120

***
Once again, hypocrisy knows no national, state, county or city borders.

Claiming to admire one set of rules but not living by them is the very definition of hypocrisy. Billvon gave a perfect example in the first post of the thread. For another, take a look in mirror.

That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law.

Indeed, most of the angry evangelicals I know publicly profess their love for Jesus but in their personal lives disregard pretty much all of what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill…. I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17,20)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

gowlerk

Quote

That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law.

Yes Ron. You have always done a pretty good job of illustrating that Christianity imposes no moral code on you at all. All that matters is what Jesus can do for you.

All that matters to me is to get closer to the light, closer to ultimate truth which is God. To be able to shed this body without even realizing it is gone.

Oh, and to protect my wife, my family, my community and to preserve our way of life in Christ.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

normiss

None of it as it was all wrong.

I'm not an angry poster here.

Why are you so filled with hate for so many other humans and your own gods work?

Total rejection of all I have to say sounds angry to me. You wish to project your hate on me. Where does that lead to discussion? What can you discuss with me?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

kallend

******
Once again, hypocrisy knows no national, state, county or city borders.

Claiming to admire one set of rules but not living by them is the very definition of hypocrisy. Billvon gave a perfect example in the first post of the thread. For another, take a look in mirror.

That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law.

Indeed, most of the angry evangelicals I know publicly profess their love for Jesus but in their personal lives disregard pretty much all of what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill…. I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17,20)

As a professed atheist, where do you find these angry evangelicals? Do you hunt them out to justify your ego? Do they hunt you?

Anyone can be angry. Are evangelicals a special kind of angry as opposed progressive liberal angry?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Phil1111 1,171]

"Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts. The American experiment, the original embodiment of the great Enlightenment idea of intellectual freedom, whereby every individual is welcome to believe anything she wishes, has metastasized out of control. From the start, our ultra-individualism was attached to epic dreams, sometimes epic fantasies—every American one of God’s chosen people building a custom-made utopia, all of us free to reinvent ourselves by imagination and will. In America nowadays, those more exciting parts of the Enlightenment idea have swamped the sober, rational, empirical parts. Little by little for centuries, then more and more and faster and faster during the past half century, we Americans have given ourselves over to all kinds of magical thinking, anything-goes relativism, and belief in fanciful explanation"

The above from the new story in the Atlantic "How America Lost Its Mind

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/

Its sort of explanation of current American thought, rationalization and mores of thinkers like Ron.

No insult intended.

[kallend 2,146]

RonD1120

As a professed atheist, where do you find these angry evangelicals? Do you hunt them out to justify your ego? Do they hunt you?

I live in a diverse community, unlike some people around here.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

Phil1111

"Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts. The American experiment, the original embodiment of the great Enlightenment idea of intellectual freedom, whereby every individual is welcome to believe anything she wishes, has metastasized out of control. From the start, our ultra-individualism was attached to epic dreams, sometimes epic fantasies—every American one of God’s chosen people building a custom-made utopia, all of us free to reinvent ourselves by imagination and will. In America nowadays, those more exciting parts of the Enlightenment idea have swamped the sober, rational, empirical parts. Little by little for centuries, then more and more and faster and faster during the past half century, we Americans have given ourselves over to all kinds of magical thinking, anything-goes relativism, and belief in fanciful explanation"

The above from the new story in the Atlantic "How America Lost Its Mind

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/

Its sort of explanation of current American thought, rationalization and mores of thinkers like Ron.

No insult intended.

Excellent quote! That is why fear the American implosion predicted by the Communists decades ago. Marxism is not the answer but we cannot continue on this path and survive.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

kallend

***

As a professed atheist, where do you find these angry evangelicals? Do you hunt them out to justify your ego? Do they hunt you?

I live in a diverse community, unlike some people around here.

How do you contend with these diverse angry evangelicals in your community? Do you engage them and try to understand their anger? Do you just observe, judge and avoid them?

ETA: Is evangelical anger different than progressive liberal anger?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 2,273]

Quote

ETA: Is evangelical anger different than progressive liberal anger?

I find it quite different. Liberal anger is more often expressed as disappointment tinged with both despair and hope. And it can be quite condescending. Which drives conservatives crazy. Right wing anger is more often insulting and full of fear and even more outrage.

I don't really recognize "evangelical" anger. There is too broad of a spectrum of views among evangelicals. I do not consider you to be evangelical in the sense of the word I understand. Or to be more clear, I do not see evangelical as the best term to describe your view of world outside of your refuge.

I do not see evangelical as a negative term. I do see your world view as very negative. Jimmy Carter is someone I see as an example of the best of evangelicals.

There have been many things you have said here that are offensive to me. Your religious views are not among them. I find the way that you make outrageous statements, and then tack a reference to God or The Savior on to the end of them as if it justifies them to be among the most hypocritical practices I have ever been exposed to.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[aphid 0]

RonD1120

****** ...only a couple are even Americans...

As has been pointed out by others previously in DZdotCalm forums and also from a surprising number of my real-life American skydiving friends, apparently non-Americans are either incapable of proper thought or not entitled to profess an opinion about anything American.

Unfortunately, I've never really managed to determine which it is.

I have never encountered these discussions anywhere in life except in this forum. What I am aware of is this, the majority of my posts are first attacked by Brits, Canadians, New Zealanders and lastly Germans in that order. Kallend falls in the category of a Brit in my order of nationalities.

The question for me becomes, why do you foreigners stalk American thought with the objective of telling us we are wrong, stupid or blind.

In my mind it would be the same as if I spied on my neighbor and then told him what he and his wife were doing inside their house was incorrect and dumb.

I offer a suggestion, not so much to you but the others. Hold off and let those that live here speak first then offer your enlightened point of view rather than being the first with condemnation, disparagement or anger.

In other words stop being rude. Let the Americans be rude to Americans first. It is our nature to attack from a position of safety. We are an angry people don't become an object of ridicule unnecessarily.

Why do we pay close attention to the US? Here are a couple of quick examples;

Your new administration wants to launch new arbitrary trade tariffs and threatens to unilaterally tear up established Trade Agreements previously contracted in good faith.

Your current White House resident appears to enjoy escalating the dick-measuring nuclear game with the pissant Third World dictator in NK.

The continual inflammatory rhetoric directed indiscriminately towards minorities, immigrants, refugees, and differing faiths not only embolden American trailer-trash, but our own as well.

In brief then, we watch, listen and often weigh-in on all-things American because what happens within and actions taken by your country has a significant impact not only on my/our existence but on people throughout the world.

However Ron, for what it's worth, I agree that there is often insufficient civility displayed by some posters here.

But I've gotten away from the initial topic in this thread, so I'll go back to my chair on the side.

[RonD1120 62]

gowlerk

Quote

ETA: Is evangelical anger different than progressive liberal anger?

I find it quite different. Liberal anger is more often expressed as disappointment tinged with both despair and hope. And it can be quite condescending. Which drives conservatives crazy. Right wing anger is more often insulting and full of fear and even more outrage.

Right now I disagree with you. But, I want to move on.

Quote

I don't really recognize "evangelical" anger. There is too broad of a spectrum of views among evangelicals. I do not consider you to be evangelical in the sense of the word I understand. Or to be more clear, I do not see evangelical as the best term to describe your view of world outside of your refuge.

I agree with you.

Quote

I do not see evangelical as a negative term. I do see your world view as very negative. Jimmy Carter is someone I see as an example of the best of evangelicals.

Again, agreement.

Quote

There have been many things you have said here that are offensive to me. Your religious views are not among them. I find the way that you make outrageous statements, and then tack a reference to God or The Savior on to the end of them as if it justifies them to be among the most hypocritical practices I have ever been exposed to.

I will work on that for you. I believe cultural language from my age group may be part of the problem.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

aphid

********* ...only a couple are even Americans...

As has been pointed out by others previously in DZdotCalm forums and also from a surprising number of my real-life American skydiving friends, apparently non-Americans are either incapable of proper thought or not entitled to profess an opinion about anything American.

Unfortunately, I've never really managed to determine which it is.

I have never encountered these discussions anywhere in life except in this forum. What I am aware of is this, the majority of my posts are first attacked by Brits, Canadians, New Zealanders and lastly Germans in that order. Kallend falls in the category of a Brit in my order of nationalities.

The question for me becomes, why do you foreigners stalk American thought with the objective of telling us we are wrong, stupid or blind.

In my mind it would be the same as if I spied on my neighbor and then told him what he and his wife were doing inside their house was incorrect and dumb.

I offer a suggestion, not so much to you but the others. Hold off and let those that live here speak first then offer your enlightened point of view rather than being the first with condemnation, disparagement or anger.

In other words stop being rude. Let the Americans be rude to Americans first. It is our nature to attack from a position of safety. We are an angry people don't become an object of ridicule unnecessarily.

Why do we pay close attention to the US? Here are a couple of quick examples;

Your new administration wants to launch new arbitrary trade tariffs and threatens to unilaterally tear up established Trade Agreements previously contracted in good faith.

Your current White House resident appears to enjoy escalating the dick-measuring nuclear game with the pissant Third World dictator in NK.

The continual inflammatory rhetoric directed indiscriminately towards minorities, immigrants, refugees, and differing faiths not only embolden American trailer-trash, but our own as well.

In brief then, we watch, listen and often weigh-in on all-things American because what happens within and actions taken by your country has a significant impact not only on my/our existence but on people throughout the world.

However Ron, for what it's worth, I agree that there is often insufficient civility displayed by some posters here.

But I've gotten away from the initial topic in this thread, so I'll go back to my chair on the side.

I like your response, well thought out and so stated. I am not now nor have I ever been an international player on any level. What you see is basically theoretical to me.

I have spent my adult life post military in the world of the mentally disturbed. Sport parachuting was merely a tangent offering the world of acceptable crazy.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,584]

Quote

Americans do not like power and control to be forced upon us. The progressive left believe they have the right to pursue this strategy because of a sense of intellectual elitism.

The conservative right, on the other hand, want to enforce their views of society on the left (e.g. who you can marry, acceptable ways to define yourself). They feel they have a right to pursue this strategy because of a sense of moral and cultural superiority, and de-facto ownership of the meaning of being an American.

Quote

Now we have a conflict, a dangerous conflict, where the progressive left call themselves Americans and the Christian right call themselves Americans. It is very similar to the Shiite vs. Sunni conflict in the Mideast.

I believe as a Christian nation we have to come to an agreed understanding that we are dealing with "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," Ephesians 6:12.

It is a common ground that is the path to survival as a nation.

I disagree with your contention of how dangerous this divide is, but then I'm basing my view on the vast number of liberals that I know; none of them want to remove the definition of "American" from any of the conservatives whose behavior they decry. Maybe conservatives are angrier than liberals, and possibly therefore more dangerous.

Proposing the Christian bible as a common ground for American definition and behavior is rejecting a couple of centuries of jurisprudence (including the Constitution). It's disingenuous, and shows a real "I'll meet you as long as you come to me, dress like me, act like me, and make me comfortable." Compromise in a diverse society is a necessity and a sign of growth, not a sign of failure.

Even the Amish (who self-segregate to keep their lives as they wish, rather than making the rest of the world follow their lifestyle) are trying to figure out how to integrate communication necessary in business with their desire for a focus on family and church-centered society. Some use cell phones at work, and ride services to get to their jobs.

A society that agrees on everything isn't real; if it happens, it's ruling by fear or by having eliminated dissent.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RonD1120 62]

wmw999

Quote

Americans do not like power and control to be forced upon us. The progressive left believe they have the right to pursue this strategy because of a sense of intellectual elitism.

***The conservative right, on the other hand, want to enforce their views of society on the left (e.g. who you can marry, acceptable ways to define yourself). They feel they have a right to pursue this strategy because of a sense of moral and cultural superiority, and de-facto ownership of the meaning of being an American.

I believe the answer there is to allow the state governments to deal with those issues, not the federal government.

Quote

Now we have a conflict, a dangerous conflict, where the progressive left call themselves Americans and the Christian right call themselves Americans. It is very similar to the Shiite vs. Sunni conflict in the Mideast.

I believe as a Christian nation we have to come to an agreed understanding that we are dealing with "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," Ephesians 6:12.

It is a common ground that is the path to survival as a nation.

Quote

I disagree with your contention of how dangerous this divide is, but then I'm basing my view on the vast number of liberals that I know; none of them want to remove the definition of "American" from any of the conservatives whose behavior they decry. Maybe conservatives are angrier than liberals, and possibly therefore more dangerous.

I believe they are equally dangerous. Liberal uprisings, such as what is going on now in St Louis, is only to be tolerated to a point. Liberals are fanning the flames and their leaders in national metropolitan centers including the MSM saying it is our fault. If that continues there is going to be an explosion.

Quote

Proposing the Christian bible as a common ground for American definition and behavior is rejecting a couple of centuries of jurisprudence (including the Constitution). It's disingenuous, and shows a real "I'll meet you as long as you come to me, dress like me, act like me, and make me comfortable." Compromise in a diverse society is a necessity and a sign of growth, not a sign of failure.

I use the Bible because that is my foundation. The point to my comment is that our battle is in the spiritual realm. As a nation we need to study that realm to understand what is going on. I've given up on justifying my faith. I say now, choose a spiritual path for the here now. You will have to decide on eternal life later, if you so choose.

I studied many paths from 1972 to 1981. I discovered Jesus Christ was the answer for the shortest most efficient path to spiritual freedom and peace of mind.

Quote

Even the Amish (who self-segregate to keep their lives as they wish, rather than making the rest of the world follow their lifestyle) are trying to figure out how to integrate communication necessary in business with their desire for a focus on family and church-centered society. Some use cell phones at work, and ride services to get to their jobs.

A society that agrees on everything isn't real; if it happens, it's ruling by fear or by having eliminated dissent.

Wendy P.

Agree

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,594]

RonD1120

***Why are you so filled with hate for so many other humans and your own gods work?

Total rejection of all I have to say sounds angry to me. You wish to project your hate on me. Where does that lead to discussion? What can you discuss with me?
Where do you get that he's projecting? Quite recently you freely professed to a deep hatred of liberals and progressives. You can't blame anyone else for taking you at your word.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[C-Jam 0]

kallend

Indeed, most of the angry evangelicals I know publicly profess their love for Jesus but in their personal lives disregard pretty much all of what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount.

What's so special about the cheesemakers?

kallend

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill….I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17,20)

Right, then later He calls the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, snakes, a brood of vipers and asks how they will escape hell? Some today may get the impression that he didn't set the bar very high.

But, scripture states that if one breaks any part of the Law at any point in their life, then they are already condemned.

Back then, people put their faith in the religious leaders of the day to save them from that condemnation. They considered the scribes and the pharisees to be the most righteous people of the time. To exceed their external appearance of almost perfect adherence to the Law would've been viewed as an impossibility.

So then, can YOU explain what it means to "exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees," and enter the Kingdom of God?

[C-Jam 0]

gowlerk

Right wing anger is more often insulting and full of fear and even more outrage.

Apparently you haven't seen many examples of left wing anger:

https://youtu.be/V5PgffmT-yE?t=39

...and that's just the peaceful stuff!

[RonD1120 62]

jakee

******Why are you so filled with hate for so many other humans and your own gods work?

Total rejection of all I have to say sounds angry to me. You wish to project your hate on me. Where does that lead to discussion? What can you discuss with me?
Where do you get that he's projecting? Quite recently you freely professed to a deep hatred of liberals and progressives. You can't blame anyone else for taking you at your word.

Was I that strong? A deep hatred, is that more than just hatred? Is there a progressive continuum for hatred?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,146]

C-Jam

***Indeed, most of the angry evangelicals I know publicly profess their love for Jesus but in their personal lives disregard pretty much all of what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount.

What's so special about the cheesemakers?

kallend

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill….I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17,20)

Right, then later He calls the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, snakes, a brood of vipers and asks how they will escape hell? Some today may get the impression that he didn't set the bar very high.

But, scripture states that if one breaks any part of the Law at any point in their life, then they are already condemned.

Back then, people put their faith in the religious leaders of the day to save them from that condemnation. They considered the scribes and the pharisees to be the most righteous people of the time. To exceed their external appearance of almost perfect adherence to the Law would've been viewed as an impossibility.

So then, can YOU explain what it means to "exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees," and enter the Kingdom of God?

Suggest you ask the individual who wrote:

"That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law." He apparently has a direct line to Jesus.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

kallend

******Indeed, most of the angry evangelicals I know publicly profess their love for Jesus but in their personal lives disregard pretty much all of what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount.

What's so special about the cheesemakers?

kallend

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill….I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17,20)

Right, then later He calls the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, snakes, a brood of vipers and asks how they will escape hell? Some today may get the impression that he didn't set the bar very high.

But, scripture states that if one breaks any part of the Law at any point in their life, then they are already condemned.

Back then, people put their faith in the religious leaders of the day to save them from that condemnation. They considered the scribes and the pharisees to be the most righteous people of the time. To exceed their external appearance of almost perfect adherence to the Law would've been viewed as an impossibility.

So then, can YOU explain what it means to "exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees," and enter the Kingdom of God?

Suggest you ask the individual who wrote:

"That is the crux of your misunderstanding about the Christian path. It is personal with guidelines. It is not a rule book to be adhered to like Mosaic Law." He apparently has a direct line to Jesus.

Yes, and you may as well if you accept it.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.