Moral relativity

[billvon 3,111]

Lots of white evangelicals like to decry the "moral relativity" of the left - how morality changes depending on circumstance.

Yet from polls, the most morally flexible people out there are white evangelicals. In 2011, they said that politician morality was critical - that an immoral candidate could not be a good politician. Once Trump became the candidate, suddenly they believed that it wasn't important.

In other words, their morality depends on who they want to win. That group showed the largest change in that moral opinion.

PRI polling data: Percentage of white evangelical Protestants who said that a politician who commits an immoral act in their personal life could still behave ethically: 30% 2011 72% 2016. Percentage saying such a politician could not serve ethically 63% 2011 20% 2016.

From The Atlantic:
================
The clearest example of evangelical ethics bending to fit the Trump presidency is white evangelicals’ abandonment of their conviction that personal character matters for elected officials. In 2011 and again just ahead of the 2016 election, PRRI asked Americans whether a political leader who committed an immoral act in his or her private life could nonetheless behave ethically and fulfill their duties in their public life. In 2011, consistent with the “values voter” brand and the traditional evangelical emphasis on the importance of personal character, only 30 percent of white evangelical Protestants agreed with this statement. But with Trump at the top of the Republican ticket in 2016, 72 percent of white evangelicals said they believed a candidate could build a kind of moral dike between his private and public life. In a head-spinning reversal, white evangelicals went from being the least likely to the most likely group to agree that a candidate’s personal immorality has no bearing on his performance in public office.
=================

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/robert-jones-white-christian-america/532587/

[quade 4]

Will almost certainly change again once Trump has been impeached.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[normiss 892]

I would expect the normal christian perspective on morals at that point.
The "but christians are forgiven" nonsense.

[RonD1120 62]

The first thought I had was, once homosexual marriage was forced upon us we lost Biblical focus and everything became confusing.

The main purpose of the Christian faith is to establish a spiritual relationship with God through Christ. That path is dynamic, unique and personal.

Society in general and politics in particular are separate issues. I think we all can agree on the fact that they do not overlap well. God's plan, AFIK, allows for and expects social and individual conflict.

I will not be judged on who I voted for. I will be judged on my spiritual dedication to Christ.

Evangelicals always maintain that regardless of the confusion, conflict and tyranny stay focused only on Christ and you will make it through, even through all eternity.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RMK 3]

RonD1120

once homosexual marriage was forced upon us

No one if forcing you to marry another man.

You "Christian folk" need to do a little less worrying about how other people live and look at yourselves.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[kallend 2,146]

RonD1120

The first thought I had was, once homosexual marriage was forced upon us we lost Biblical focus and everything became confusing.

The main purpose of the Christian faith is to establish a spiritual relationship with God through Christ. That path is dynamic, unique and personal.

Society in general and politics in particular are separate issues. I think we all can agree on the fact that they do not overlap well. God's plan, AFIK, allows for and expects social and individual conflict.

I will not be judged on who I voted for. I will be judged on my spiritual dedication to Christ.

Evangelicals always maintain that regardless of the confusion, conflict and tyranny stay focused only on Christ and you will make it through, even through all eternity.

But hypocrisy doesn't bother you. It sure bothered Jesus.

You should try reading the Sermon on the Mount.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Stumpy 284]

RMK

*** once homosexual marriage was forced upon us

No one if forcing you to marry another man.

You "Christian folk" need to do a little less worrying about how other people live and look at yourselves.

That was my thought also - didn't realise Ron had been forced to marry a man.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[rushmc 23]

quade

Will almost certainly change again once Trump has been impeached.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 892]

I'm very curious why your god creates so many humans that his followers hate.
There's a break in the chain somewhere.
It's interesting to see christians hate their god's work.

[billvon 3,111]

>Society in general and politics in particular are separate issues.

Yes, once Trump was elected most evangelicals decided that. Prior to that we heard a lot of complaining about how the evil Obama was leading society astray, and he had to be replaced for the good of society. Now - well, there's a separation there; Trump's immorality, greed and hatred has nothing to do with any sort of leadership of society.

[Lawndarter 3]

RonD1120

The first thought I had was, once homosexual marriage was forced upon us we lost Biblical focus and everything became confusing.

I can help with this. If you stop being obsessed about other people's sexuality and their lives, you'll feel a whole lot better. If you're so confused about homosexuals, just stop thinking so much about it.

When Canada brought in marriage equality over a decade ago, it took a matter of weeks and people completely stopped caring, because we all have way better things to do with our lives.

Oh, and the most beautiful part of it all? Marriage equality exists in Canada because of a Christian church which found and exploited a loophole in the law. They used an old custom called Publication of Banns to circumvent the need to obtain a marriage license, married a couple, and then sued the Government of Ontario to get the marriage registered. That turned into the case that brought us marriage equality.

[RonD1120 62]

All you people, except billvon, stopped reading my post after the first sentence and made it personal. Sad and somewhat ignorant. And, only a couple are even Americans and none live in rural America.

I simply offered an explanation. Take it or leave it. Same- Same.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,146]

RonD1120

All you people, except billvon, stopped reading my post after the first sentence and made it personal. Sad and somewhat ignorant. And, only a couple are even Americans and none live in rural America.

I simply offered an explanation. Take it or leave it. Same- Same.

Hypocrisy is the same thing regardless of nationality, or rural vs. urban.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 892]

I read the entire thing!

I dismissed it based on my life experience as I know some homosexuals who have significantly better morals than some christians I know.

I honestly don't understand the hypocrisy of sex vs. religious beliefs being any value as a qualifier for morals in a human though. Neither are important enough for my time. I could care less what other humans do when nekkid or in church. I've seen enough of both!

[aphid 0]

RonD1120

...only a couple are even Americans...

As has been pointed out by others previously in DZdotCalm forums and also from a surprising number of my real-life American skydiving friends, apparently non-Americans are either incapable of proper thought or not entitled to profess an opinion about anything American.

Unfortunately, I've never really managed to determine which it is.

[RonD1120 62]

kallend

***All you people, except billvon, stopped reading my post after the first sentence and made it personal. Sad and somewhat ignorant. And, only a couple are even Americans and none live in rural America.

I simply offered an explanation. Take it or leave it. Same- Same.

Hypocrisy is the same thing regardless of nationality, or rural vs. urban.

Call it whatever you wish. There is no hypocrisy in my area. We all are on the same side. As I said way back in early 2016 or before, this was an election of emotion. American people are hurt and they are angry. We are perilously close to another civil war. If Soros and Obama keep fueling the flames with BLM, Antifa, KKK and the other white supremacists it is likely to result in the most terrifying explosion. I know that seems like a contradictory juxtaposition of terms but I believe it is accurate.

Liberals will have to learn and accept the reasons why Donald Trump won the presidency. When they do they next have to learn to compete in the arena of ideas. They have to realize there is a nebulous definition of the American spirit. Donald Trump was able to tap into that sentiment. I do not think it was simply evangelical Christians that voted for him. There were Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jews and total non-church goers that said enough is enough. Obama made us accept what we did not want and Hillary would have done more of the same. Just remember, Obama was the cause that created the Trump effect.

If President Trump is unable to accomplish some of his major campaign promises he will serve one term. However, if the economy is stimulated enough where middle class Americans believe that are earning more and keeping more he will be in the WH for another term, health permitting.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,111]

>There is no hypocrisy in my area. We all are on the same side.

"Hypocrisy" does not mean "being on different sides." It means saying one thing and doing another. An example would be promoting the teachings of Christ while supporting laws to ban refugees from war-torn countries. Another example would be claiming that it is important that politicians do not commit moral acts - but only when "the other side" is in power.

>If Soros and Obama keep fueling the flames with BLM, Antifa, KKK and the other
>white supremacists . .. .

Obama isn't defending white supremacists - Trump is. In any case, blaming Obama for everything you don't like doesn't work any more. He's not the president; Trump is. You should learn to deal with that.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

RonD1120

All you people, except billvon, stopped reading my post after the first sentence and made it personal. Sad and somewhat ignorant. And, only a couple are even Americans and none live in rural America.

I simply offered an explanation. Take it or leave it. Same- Same.

What does it matter if they are American? Or where they live?
Sad and somewhat arrogant to think that those things matter.

You wrote:

Quote

Evangelicals always maintain that regardless of the confusion, conflict and tyranny stay focused only on Christ and you will make it through, even through all eternity.

While that is only one belief, it's actually a pretty decent one.

If those who claim him as their savior would follow his teachings in every aspect of their lives, the world would be a much, much better place.

Too bad that so many so-called "Christians" fail to focus on Christ and his teachings and substitute their own fears and hate.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[normiss 892]

That's not true Ron, WE Americans did not vote for him.
He didn't win the election, he was given the job by the electoral college as the result of republican gerrymandering.
Obama gave US an amazing economy based on what he inherited, it would appear Trump won't be so lucky.
Equality doesn't appear to mean the same thing to you as it does most Americans. Why do you dislike the constitution so much?

[RonD1120 62]

normiss

I read the entire thing!

I dismissed it based on my life experience as I know some homosexuals who have significantly better morals than some christians I know.

I honestly don't understand the hypocrisy of sex vs. religious beliefs being any value as a qualifier for morals in a human though. Neither are important enough for my time. I could care less what other humans do when nekkid or in church. I've seen enough of both!

If you read it you did not comprehend the meaning. My post was not about homosexuality.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[normiss 892]

Nor was my reply, so speaking of uncomprehending.

Your hypocrisy for the "beliefs" you tout as the right way when compared to things you hate is getting pretty old.
IMO, our government has no place in morality no matter the beliefs or sexual identification of the citizen. ALL equal. Stop wanting other people to suffer your beliefs because you hate something about them is my perspective.
I'm really sick of suffering for the religious beliefs of others, it has no place nor meaning in my life other than being an occasional pain to deal with.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

RonD1120

***I read the entire thing!

I dismissed it based on my life experience as I know some homosexuals who have significantly better morals than some christians I know.

I honestly don't understand the hypocrisy of sex vs. religious beliefs being any value as a qualifier for morals in a human though. Neither are important enough for my time. I could care less what other humans do when nekkid or in church. I've seen enough of both!

If you read it you did not comprehend the meaning. My post was not about homosexuality.

No, but the first line was.

Was it your intention to use your fears and prejudices in the first line to distract everyone from the rest of the post?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[RonD1120 62]

aphid

*** ...only a couple are even Americans...

As has been pointed out by others previously in DZdotCalm forums and also from a surprising number of my real-life American skydiving friends, apparently non-Americans are either incapable of proper thought or not entitled to profess an opinion about anything American.

Unfortunately, I've never really managed to determine which it is.

I have never encountered these discussions anywhere in life except in this forum. What I am aware of is this, the majority of my posts are first attacked by Brits, Canadians, New Zealanders and lastly Germans in that order. Kallend falls in the category of a Brit in my order of nationalities.

The question for me becomes, why do you foreigners stalk American thought with the objective of telling us we are wrong, stupid or blind.

In my mind it would be the same as if I spied on my neighbor and then told him what he and his wife were doing inside their house was incorrect and dumb.

I offer a suggestion, not so much to you but the others. Hold off and let those that live here speak first then offer your enlightened point of view rather than being the first with condemnation, disparagement or anger.

In other words stop being rude. Let the Americans be rude to Americans first. It is our nature to attack from a position of safety. We are an angry people don't become an object of ridicule unnecessarily.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

wolfriverjoe

******I read the entire thing!

I dismissed it based on my life experience as I know some homosexuals who have significantly better morals than some christians I know.

I honestly don't understand the hypocrisy of sex vs. religious beliefs being any value as a qualifier for morals in a human though. Neither are important enough for my time. I could care less what other humans do when nekkid or in church. I've seen enough of both!

If you read it you did not comprehend the meaning. My post was not about homosexuality.

No, but the first line was.

Was it your intention to use your fears and prejudices in the first line to distract everyone from the rest of the post?

My intention was to share my first thought. Then I offered my explanation to billvon's question. That was two separate but related concepts.

Americans do not like power and control to be forced upon us. The progressive left believe they have the right to pursue this strategy because of a sense of intellectual elitism.

Now we have a conflict, a dangerous conflict, where the progressive left call themselves Americans and the Christian right call themselves Americans. It is very similar to the Shiite vs. Sunni conflict in the Mideast.

I believe as a Christian nation we have to come to an agreed understanding that we are dealing with "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," Ephesians 6:12.

It is a common ground that is the path to survival as a nation.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,146]

Once again, hypocrisy knows no national, state, county or city borders.

Claiming to admire one set of rules but not living by them is the very definition of hypocrisy. Billvon gave a perfect example in the first post of the thread. For another, take a look in mirror.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.